Project Black Golfball-plans for 2010 Options

[black92_tsi_awd]

Finally got back to working on the Talon Sat.

After I put in the replacement trans, I developed a leak and parked the car again due to the weather. I thought it was the transfer case seal so I pulled it out. Transfer Case was full of oil, so that wasn't it.

The inside on the trans housing was all wet when I pulled the clutch fork boot off so apparently one of the trans seals is leaking. Looks like the output shaft for the transfer case may be the culprit. It seems to be seaping just sitting in the driveway. Thing is, why would it be wet up by the clutch fork?? The input shaft seal shouldn't be leaking that much because it's above the oil line in the trans, at least I think so. I hope it's not the input shaft seal, I'd have to disaasemble the trans to replace that.

I did remove the inoperable cruise control since I picked up a no-cruise cable over the winter. Need to finish hooking that stuff up.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Ordered another ACT 2600 pressure plate. Need to tear town the car again.

I guess I'll find that leak when I pull the trans again.

I got a couple lead on some manual belts, hopefully the pan out.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Got my new pressure plate and got the trans pulled. Inside of the bellhousing is wet everywhere. Trying to figure out if the input seal is leaking or the output shaft seal. Since the splines are wet on the clutch disk I'm guessing it's the input seal. Time to take the trans apart.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Little catch can I welded up to replace the bulky Summit one I had. This one is going to be mounted on the firewall where the cruise control used to live.

Anybody recommend something I can pour inside to keep it from rusting from the condensation water/oil mix that will be going in it?

Attached File(s)

 catch_can.jpg ( 39.17K ) Number of downloads: 7

 

[Kyle d32a]

Little catch can I welded up to replace the bulky Summit one I had. This one is going to be mounted on the firewall where the cruise control used to live.

Anybody recommend something I can pour inside to keep it from rusting from the condensation water/oil mix that will be going in it?

Nice work man. Theres probably something that you can coat the inside with that will rust proof it, not sure what to use though.

[dualdj1]

you could probly just use some paint/primer and swish it around in there. wouldn't be the most uniform, but should work. other than that i'm sure there's some rubberized sealer of some sort available.

[black92_tsi_awd]

I intially thought fuel tank sealer...but figured it would be kind of expensive for a 6 oz "tank"

Paint is a good idea, maybe thin it down and swish it around.

I want to have one made out of aluminum, one I make sure this one works ok. I built some baffling in it to keep some oil blowing out like the old one did.

[dualdj1]

if you're going to make a new one before too long, then I wouldn't even worry about sealing it. Just take some regular oil and swish it around to protect it as well as possible. It shouldn't rust out in less than 6 months - a year.

[black92_tsi_awd]

You don't know me very well...
This will probably be on my car until I get rid of it!

A guy at work might have a little left over gas tank sealer, that should work great.

I ordered all my seals for the trans, transfer case and a new TOB from MItsu. Now I just have to get enough energy to get the trans apart.

Just got confirmation of a set of manual seat belts get sent to my house today too! Losing more weight!!! Got faster!

[black92_tsi_awd]

Took my flywheel into Kalina to get it resurfaced. They can't get the dowl pins out! Even with heat. WTF?

Owner apoligised...said they never had this happen.

Anybody got a good 6 bolt flywheel to sell?

[black92_tsi_awd]

Took the day off of work and worked on the Talon and some woodworking projects.

Fabricated up a mount for the new breather tank and mounted everything.
Welded up my broken prop rod mount.
Torn down the trans. The input shaft seal was the culprit. It was torn to hell.

Still hunting for another flywheel.

[dualdj1]

that's pretty crazy that they couldn't get the pins out. never heard of that either. course you probably can't heat the flywheel itself to get them loose, without warping it... sucks

[black92_tsi_awd]

I found a Fidanza 8lb AL flywheel for $85 unused.

Anybody running a lightened flywheel on their street rides? Any issues?

[awd4kicks]

Mine is an oldschool Fidanza like the one that Darryl twisted into two pieces. I've had to replace the friction surface before, but otherwise no mechanical problems. The engine obviously picks-up and loses RPM quicker so I found the engine loses RPM so fast when the clutch is depressed and you are coasting or coming to a stop that it wants to die. That's really the only negative side effect I've had to deal with and we were able to improve it a lot with tuning.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Well, I guess I didn't notice any differance when I drove your car home from Cordova that night mine broke, so hopfully it won't make a big differnance on mine.

[Patterson353]

Yea i agree. Mine used to want to die but it got tuned not to.

[black92_tsi_awd]

NCgalant I assume!

[Patterson353]

Yes Sir

[black92_tsi_awd]

Got my Fidanza flywheel today! Looks pretty good after I cleaned up the little bit of surface rust. Going to go take it in and get the step height checked. I read somewhere some of the older ones have a bad step height sometimes.

Can I assume that the flywheel bolts are torqued to the standard amount?

[black92_tsi_awd]

Never going to Kalina again! I asked them to check the step height on the new flywheel. Long story but I leave pissed.

Head over to Mullvain's and they measure it and it's perfect....and free!

I go to install in and everything goes great until bolt the clutch on. One hole is buggered up. Take it all back out and put an ez-out. Check the other holes and the bolts don't go far enough in to get the clutch mounted flat! The threads are messed up halfway down the hole. So out come a tap and I tap all the holes.

So instead of putting in the trans today I spent 2 hours dicking with a flywheel and clutch that are still not on the car!

The good news, I went to picked up another axle and found out they have a lifetime guarentee and I got a free replacement.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Well spent 7 hours getting everything together...no joy, clutch won't fully disengage!
Had a hell of a time get the trans in. Stripped out one of the top trans bolt. Ended up putting ez-threads in both holes.
Bled the clutch system.
Made some extended clutch rods. The last rod is just long enough not to pre-load the clutch fingers witht the TOB.
It will only go into 1st and 2nd and barely disengages 1/4" off the floor.

The flywheel was checked and it's step height was .61" It's a brand new ACT 2600 clutch and disk and MITSU TOB. You would think that with all new componant and the same shimmed shift fork as before it would have plenty of fork movement.

I guess I can shim the fork ball some more...don't know what else to do.

[spyonu2007]

Chris, I have not read the whole thread..
A couple of questions that come off the top of my head.

With the car off, can you shift the trans easily into all gears? YES/NO

If No, then the problem is probably in the trans

If yes.. Clutch related.

How old are the Slave cylinder and master cylinder for the clutch?
Have you bled both of them?

Ive ran all sorts of clutches in the fwd, and numerous awd's.. Ive never had to shim anything, not once.. with act, spec (star), exedy so on and so forth. The only thing Ive ever done is the slave rod swap, which only changed my engagement point for me, as I recall (pedal release location).

Good luck man, I know it can be frustrating..
Where are all these shims going?

[black92_tsi_awd]

Trans shifts fine without the car running.

I replaced the slave and master probably 3-4 years ago. I checked them, they are not leaking. I did bleed the system twice. I replaced the hose with a braided one I had because it had a small knick but it wasn't leaking. The slave moves the fork a little less than 1/2" which I read is about normal.

The shims go on the clutch fork ball. Adding a shim effectively moves the fork closer to the pressure plate. Mainly to make up for the material lost when machining the flywheel.

I'm thinking the Fidanza flywheel is a different height that the stock , because the clutch fork is further over in the window than the previous setup.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Got everything back together...damn thing still won't go in gear.

I can put it in gear, push in the clutch, start it and then as soon as I twitch my foot it engages.

But I can't get it into gear with the engine running and the clutch pushed in. I'm not sure if the flywheel is screwed, the ACT 2600 is screwed...maybe clutch pedal is worn, slave or master??? Everything worked before the new clutch and flywheel was added

I can't beleive it would be the trans after I took it apart, because it goes into gear fine out of the car, I checked.

[dualdj1]

It's something in your clutch system. Your clutch is just barely disengaging, which isn't enough when it's running, and not already in gear. it needs to completely disengage to shift. Sounds like you need more travel on the clutch arm in some way/shape/form. Can you lengthen your slave cylinder anymore (or shorten, whichever would take play out)?

[black92_tsi_awd]

Well I had Brent check the movement of the clutch fork in the Rocket. (thanks again!). His car has about 1/2" of movement measured in the clutch window. My car has 3/8"

So maybe the slave or master is going out. But neither are leaking though and they are about 3-4 yrs old. I guess with the old worn out clutch, that throw might have been enough. With the new parts it may need more throw.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Replaced the master and slave...Still only have 3/8" of movement.

Checked the pedal assembly, after pushing down the clutch and letting it return I can pull the pedal about an 1" up. So now it may be my pedal assembly is worn out.

I still need to bleed the clutch a little, my helper left before I was completly done. but it don't look good.

[dualdj1]

man, that's a strange problem.

Will it hurt those clutches to run a bit of preload? It's obviously not disengaging, so if you could preload it like 1/8" you'd probly get enough movement to disengage the clutch, while still getting a good lock when pedal is out.

[black92_tsi_awd]

naw...preload cause TOB failures.

I'll pull out the pedal assembly and weld it.

Sooner or later I'll make it to the track.

[dualdj1]

yeah kinda what i thought, tough luck

[natedogg]

The wearing clutch pedal is actually a fairly common problem on DSM's. I had to fix mine a while back. I agree, it still strange though...

[black92_tsi_awd]

steering column is out, everything disconnected. Can get the brake master cylinder out of the way enough to get the pedal assembly out.

Got pissed so it's a good time to quit.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Got everything out yesterday. By looking at the joint and the wear pattern on the washer and clutch master cylinder arm, I think the nut loosened on the edge of the clutch assembly allowing the end to slot and tab joint to wear slightly. I reassembled and tightened the nut and there was no slop. I read on a old DSMTalk post that that joint is almost an interferance fit and should have no slop, can anybody confirm that?

I ordered all new parts and Shep brass bearings today. I'm going to rebuild it and hopefully never have to rebuild it again. I hope this really fixes the porblem otherwise I don't know what else to do.

[dualdj1]

it really sounds like you're on the right track. I'd also make sure and locktite the nuts/bolts in the linkage, so they won't come loose. since you've got it apart already...

[black92_tsi_awd]

JNZ Tuning let me down for the first time. Order didn't show up yet. Got the brass bushings from Shep Trans but not the pedal, linkage etc. from JNZ.

Dualdj1, I plan on tack welding the washer/nut onto the end of the shaft after it's reassembled.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Well I'm about at the end of my rope. I replaced the pedal assembly and the clutch still won't disengage.

So to recap.
After installing a new ACT 2600, pressure plate and Mitsu TOB with a Fidanza flywheel the clutch didn't disengage. I had Mulvains check the step height and it was .610.

Pulled the trans and reshimed the fork to put the clutch pedal to the drivers side of the trans window.

I replaced the clutch master and slave. Replace the old hose with braided hose. Tried extended slave cylinder rods.

I rebuilt the clutch pedal assembly with Shep brass bushings, new Mitsu clutch pedal and arm. I welded the washers and nut on the ned of the shaft.

I even welded a nut on the clutch clevis to get more adjustment with no effect.

Bled the clutch system several times.

I have a 1/2" of slave rod movement at the fork.

The only things left I can think of is?:
-defective pressure plate (too thick?)
-defective clutch plate
-2600 clutch bending aluminum flywheel

ANYTHING ELSE???

[awd4kicks]

The only things left I can think of is?:
-defective pressure plate (too thick?)
-defective clutch plate
-2600 clutch bending aluminum flywheel

ANYTHING ELSE???

Well unless your flywheel is a lot different than mine I don't think it's bending since I have the same pressure plate.

Do you still have the old flywheel? Did you compare it side by side with the new one?
Sound to me like you have taken care of everything, leaving only the possibility of defective parts.
As discussed earlier, the only way to really offer any help is to lay my eyes on it or any other person with good experience.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Kicks,
Let me know if your game gets canceled today, or if you have time this weekend.

I still have the old flywheel. It looked the same to me. I have the friction plate thickness spec from ACT so if I take it apart I can verify the thickness.

[black92_tsi_awd]

I got the Talon running! I found this video last night "Proper CLutch Adjustment"

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/tech-articles

I had welded an extra washer on the clutch master cylinder clevis and good thing cause I had the adjust the clutch rod pretty far out. Have 1" of free play and it disengages about an 1" off the floor. Doesn't seem to creep on the stutterbox either.

Now I just got to finish putting the car back together.

[awd4kicks]

Congrats Chris! See you at the track June 6th!

[black92_tsi_awd]

Well maybe...

Pass side axle started leaking Sunday. Swapped in another new seal, old one seemed to have a small knick in it. However the new seal is leaking.

After some taling to Darryl...and some internet searching by him. We came up with a thread on DSMTalk where a guy got a bad axle that wouldn't stop leaking. He replaced the seal 3 time and it wouldn't stop leaking, swapped in another axle and it was fine. Off to Advance again and see if they'll give me another to try.

Anybody else had a similiar experience?/

[dualdj1]

Well maybe...

Pass side axle started leaking Sunday. Swapped in another new seal, old one seemed to have a small knick in it. However the new seal is leaking.

After some taling to Darryl...and some internet searching by him. We came up with a thread on DSMTalk where a guy got a bad axle that wouldn't stop leaking. He replaced the seal 3 time and it wouldn't stop leaking, swapped in another axle and it was fine. Off to Advance again and see if they'll give me another to try.

Anybody else had a similiar experience?/

haven't, but could easily see that happening. Take a Micrometer with you if you have one, and mic out both axles where the seal sits to see if there's a difference. Also can make sure it's perfectly round that way.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Looks like I solved the problem (finger crossed).

The axle that was in there had a sealing surface of 1.614" in dia. The axle I picked up today has a dia of 1.378"!! The bigger axle had pushed the seal into the case when I tapped it in to get the c-clip to seat. I should have known better.

So I got the round friggin axle from Advance! They said they would swap it no charge but what a pain in the a$$.

Drove my daughter to softball tonight and no leaks.

[dualdj1]

sweet, glad to hear it's finally coming together!

[black92_tsi_awd]

and she's down again.

something in the trans or clutch is rattling.

back on the jack stands it goes.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Got the gears sets rebuilted after eating a couple of gears. I can't get a bearing race out of the trans for the input shaft so I said screw it and assembled the old stock trans with upgraded shift forks I bought from Darryl.

Got the old trans installed and at least the cars running right now and maybe I can finish breaking in the new clutch and have some fun with the car.

Took it out today and seems to be running pretty good. Need to find my logger and see how the tune is.

My autometer shift light seems to have taken a dump. Goes off randomly between 3000 and where ever the shift pill is.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Took the Talon out to check the launch rpm on the stutter with the new clutch/flywheel combo. Left at 5800, spun all four tires and first gear exploded after about 15 feet. By the looks of the tires tracks, the front wheels started hopping and the shock load must have destroyed first. I've got my other trans to put together but it'll be tough to make the CSS Street car challange and defend my belt...8(

[dualdj1]

damn man, You just can't keep that thing together. too much power

tough luck though, hope you can get it fixed

[black92_tsi_awd]

Well here's a picture of the burnout and a couple of the resulting carnage.

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 burnout.jpg ( 73.13K ) Number of downloads: 4
 trans1.jpg ( 59.27K ) Number of downloads: 4
 trans2.jpg ( 59.15K ) Number of downloads: 3

 

[black92_tsi_awd]

I did manage to get it to the CSS Street Car Challange. Alternator bolt sheared of on the drive down. Luckily I carry an extra alternator when I got to the track. Didn't have the correct bolt, but a little redneck engineering got me running again.

Only ran a best of 12.79 but was fighting wheel hop all day and didn't want to blow another trans.

Attached File(s)

 redneck_engineering.jpg ( 65.81K ) Number of downloads: 3

 

[dualdj1]

lol sooner or later you'll have replaced everything on that car, then maybe it'll hold together for ya

glad to see you at least got some track time though

[black92_tsi_awd]

The race trans started grinding 4th gear so out it came...

I rebuilt the grenaded trans and swapped it for the race trans today today. Shifts pretty good and should get me back to the track soon.

Guess I'll bust the case open on the race trans and look at 4th gear hub and syncros.

[awd4kicks]

The race trans started grinding 4th gear so out it came...

I rebuilt the grenaded trans and swapped it for the race trans today today. Shifts pretty good and should get me back to the track soon.

Guess I'll bust the case open on the race trans and look at 4th gear hub and syncros.

Keeping the dream alive...

[black92_tsi_awd]

Keeping the dream alive...

Or the nightmare! 8)

Looks like I might hit thetrack this Friday.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Went to the track last Friday, didn't do too bad. My quicky trans rebuild stayed together and shifts pretty well.

12.85 @ 107.0 1.69 60' on 17psi
12.82 @ 109.0 1.82 on 20-21psi
12.769 @ 109.7 1.85
12.604 @109.3 1.72
12.687 @ 109.91 1.77
12.426 @ 110.15 1.675 60'

Still have some wheel hop issues. Probably need to replace the mounts with poly. They are "window welded" but the rubber material is being pushed out of the mount.

I don't know how much faster the 14b will go. Last runs the tune was pretty good, almost no knock, 20-21 degrees timing, WB was 11.2 and boost was spiking to 21 and falliong off at the end of each gear.

Off to V-day Sunday!

[dualdj1]

nice work, looks like a good solid setup.

[awd4kicks]

Good job Chris!

[black92_tsi_awd]

Carrier bearing was getting a little sloppy so I refilled it Friday with silicone like I did 4 years ago.

Problem is I can't get the damn silicone to dry...I keep running a heat gun on it. Should have never did it with racing Sunday.

[mitsu90]

Stick a heat lamp on it or maybe even a 100 watt bulb might be enough heat.

[black92_tsi_awd]

I survived Vicary Day!!

Car had wheel hop problems all day.

12.89@107.9 on 17psi
13.67@108.6 major wheel hop, had to get out of the throttle
12.50@109.4
12.62@109.4
12.56@109.2
12.68@108.4

Most of the 60's where in the 1.7x's

Time to get some poly engine mounts and a BIGGER turbo!

[mitsu90]

Nice times.. You finally giving up on the 14b

[black92_tsi_awd]

Quite possibly...

I've been beating this 14B turbo to death. The only thing I can do is have the car lose more weight which I'm not sure I how to do yet. I tried getting the lighterweight 3 pt manual lap belt but apparently their pretty rare. I could replace the seats with racing buckets, but the long drive to Cordova might kill this old man. The guys running faster on the 14B have gutted cars, lexan windows, fiberglass hood etc. Not good for taking my kids for a ride.

I need to do a new exhaust, the Cat back Buschur system is about done. I'm going to go with a side dump with maybe a Moroso spiral flow muffler. That should shave a few pounds.

[dualdj1]

yeah major weight reduction is not worth doing on something you still want to drive on the street. best off going with engine upgrades, even though you have more risk of engine failure that way...

[mitsu90]

What turbo you looking at using?

[black92_tsi_awd]

Probably a 16g, easiest trip to the 11's. But if I can get a deal on a 18 or 20g I might go for it.

I'm looking for a rebuildable core turbo.

[mitsu90]

I'll keep a look out for one

[black92_tsi_awd]

Anybody know anyone that has run the Dsmap tuning software?

[mitsu90]

93dsmowner is running speed density. He seems to know what he is doing too.

[93dsmowner]

Anybody know anyone that has run the Dsmap tuning software?

Yes I am indeed. My setup is very similar to yours, I'd imagine. Big 16g, Punishment FMIC, 3" TBE. On a blown 16g and those mods I ran a 13.6 on a stock MAF on 10psi creeping to 15 by redline in 3rd.

I should be hot on your heels at 20psi on pump gas on SD. The difference in throttle response is amazing. I'd be happy to let you check out the software and drive the car to see if you notice a difference.

Oh and if you haven't yet and you are really interested, go sign up at www.ds-map.net before anything else. Good group of guys, especially in the Pidgin chat room. Bunch of "outside of the box" guys over there. Freescale MAP Sensors for $25, USB logger cable for $25 (not sure when he can begin making them again as he was moving/house stuff)

You could end up with the sensors and I have some junkyard pigtail pulls in the garage, all for under $50. Then you would want an Ostrich (or I can wrap up my tune and leave it alone and let you borrow mine).

Wideband is able to be logged in the Jackal logger (DS-MAP is actually Jackal. DS-MAP is way beta pre Jackal.) You take a wideband analog output wire out of a wideband controller (I have the Innovate LC1) and run it to where the factory narrow band goes.) Technically we don't use closed loop. However, if you can have 2.5V be equal to your stoich value (whether you want to tune to 14.7 or 15.5 or whatever is up to you. You would have to program the WBO2 for this, however. 2.5V is 14.7 on the LC1 out of the box.

93dsmowner is running speed density. He seems to know what he is doing too.

Heh I'm MAF retarded so I think him and I could exchange some valuable info.

[black92_tsi_awd]

I joined up on there this week. Need to get my five posts in to download the software. Spent a couple of night on there reading, seems pretty interesting.

You still running the 16g? I thought you put a HX40 or something on it.

[93dsmowner]

I joined up on there this week. Need to get my five posts in to download the software. Spent a couple of night on there reading, seems pretty interesting.

You still running the 16g? I thought you put a HX40 or something on it.

Yep still on the 16g. I have an HX35 in the garage that I eventually want to build a divided manifold for so I can run the stock housing. I won't be doing that until I build a motor for it.

It's insanely simple. I've never played with Link but I have used TunerPro RT to do stuff (antilag, stutter box, nlts, lean burn) but Jackal is a million times easier.

Car pulls HARD and I'm only at 17psi and 19 deg peak timing on 93 Pump. Putting in some BPR7ES plugs tomorrow to give 20+ psi a shot.

[dualdj1]

hey I'm lookin for something good to help patterson tune his. Free is definitely better. Been lookin at the DSMlink stuff, but open to other options.


Now are you using a combination of SD and MAF? or is it straight up SD using like a GM 4bar or something? My understanding is if you know MAF tuning (which i somewhat know), then MAF is better than SD because it's more accurate. BUT the best setup is a blowthrough setup, and you have to have a GOOD MAF to handle that.

[93dsmowner]

hey I'm lookin for something good to help patterson tune his. Free is definitely better. Been lookin at the DSMlink stuff, but open to other options.


Now are you using a combination of SD and MAF? or is it straight up SD using like a GM 4bar or something? My understanding is if you know MAF tuning (which i somewhat know), then MAF is better than SD because it's more accurate. BUT the best setup is a blowthrough setup, and you have to have a GOOD MAF to handle that.

Blowthrus are meh in my opinion. You have to use the stock maf to calibrate it and changed in the diameter of piping around the maf affect the readings and blahh.... 1 vac line to the MAP. 1 IAT sensor in the intercooler piping. A little cutting and splicing. DONE.

Again, more than happy to show you the setup and let you see how my junk runs.

[dualdj1]

Please don't take this wrong, I am generally in support of MAF, but am open to SD where the circumstances better fit an SD setup.

That being said, any *good* MAF manufacturer will be able to give you the MAF curve to plug in to your tuning software. Then yes you have to datalog and tune your MAF curve for your specific setup, but if you do so you'll have much more accurate AFR through the entire RPM range. Vacuum estimates airflow, a MAF will always tell you nearly exactly how much air is going in, if you have it calibrated properly.

In the mustang world, damn near EVERYONE ditches SD to run MAF if possible. It does take more tuning and datalogging to get it dialed in, but general consensus is that it's more accurate, so worthwhile. I do understand that MAP/SD is a lot easier to setup and configure though.


I guess I just don't see why you'd have to use the stock MAF to calibrate it, if you have both a good MAF and good tuning software, not dealing with any of that MAF translator bullshit.

If you'd like, i can get some screenshots of the tuning software I used on my Mustang to show you what I mean. The author also built an analyzer program, so you basically plug in your datalog, and it gives you the updated MAF curve to plug back into your tune. Rinse and Repeat. I believe I could make my analyzer program work with any datalog from any logging software, so long as it has the required parameters.

[93dsmowner]

Please don't take this wrong, I am generally in support of MAF, but am open to SD where the circumstances better fit an SD setup.

That being said, any *good* MAF manufacturer will be able to give you the MAF curve to plug in to your tuning software. Then yes you have to datalog and tune your MAF curve for your specific setup, but if you do so you'll have much more accurate AFR through the entire RPM range. Vacuum estimates airflow, a MAF will always tell you nearly exactly how much air is going in, if you have it calibrated properly.

In the mustang world, damn near EVERYONE ditches SD to run MAF if possible. It does take more tuning and datalogging to get it dialed in, but general consensus is that it's more accurate, so worthwhile. I do understand that MAP/SD is a lot easier to setup and configure though.


I guess I just don't see why you'd have to use the stock MAF to calibrate it, if you have both a good MAF and good tuning software, not dealing with any of that MAF translator bullshit.

If you'd like, i can get some screenshots of the tuning software I used on my Mustang to show you what I mean. The author also built an analyzer program, so you basically plug in your datalog, and it gives you the updated MAF curve to plug back into your tune. Rinse and Repeat. I believe I could make my analyzer program work with any datalog from any logging software, so long as it has the required parameters.

The way I see it, MAF is best on NA cars but SD is a better way to go about things on a turbo car. If you have a 3" GM MAF and 2.5" intercooler piping, your calibration will be different that someone with full 3" since it would change the velocity of the air going through the MAF.

Both are great ways to go about things. Idle quality and throttle response on SD can't be beaten. But again, opinions are like assholes, and everyone's but yours stinks!

[black92_tsi_awd]

I don't understand the "you'd have to use the stock MAF to calibrate it". I never calibrated my MAFT and have never heard that before. Is the calibration something that DSMlink or DSMAP requires?

[93dsmowner]

I don't understand the "you'd have to use the stock MAF to calibrate it". I never calibrated my MAFT and have never heard that before. Is the calibration something that DSMlink or DSMAP requires?

I don't know much regarding MAF tuning outside of Link. I don't like Link because I think a lot of the stuff they do is band-aid fixes. Like MAF Clamping and things like that.

I'm in it for SD because I want MAP based fuel and timing. Timing is still currently load based and they will be unveiling MAP-Based timing and fueling in Werewolf which won't be freeware.

However, there are people running 10's on Jackal. Hell, the one and only twincharged DSM that I know of is running Jackal.

[dualdj1]

"The way I see it, MAF is best on NA cars but SD is a better way to go about things on a turbo car. If you have a 3" GM MAF and 2.5" intercooler piping, your calibration will be different that someone with full 3" since it would change the velocity of the air going through the MAF."

-- That is correct, but not really an obstacle, nor is air density, as the nature of a MAF corrects for these factors.

The main thing that matters with MAF tuning is not having any bends before/after so you get a "straight" air stream through the meter. That matters more though in a pull through (NA or FI) setup than a blow through (FI), as with blow through you're under pressure. It's just important to get an even stream of air through the maf, or have the MAF clocked properly to handle an unbalanced stream.

In a turbo setup, if you want to use a MAF, you definitely need to run Blow-Through and not Pull-Through, and your meter has to support that setup.

The MAF does require tuning though. In the software I use, you have 30 points in a table, and it's a voltage output to CFM relation, so at say .1v you have 800cfm, whereas at 5v (max) you have 2400CFM. You can tune all the points in between on that curve to give you the desired AFR across all the flow range.

The downside is that if you have a large plenum, there is some delay from the engine starting to pull more air, to the MAF reading it. I'd think with the map you would have a slightly quicker reaction. HOWEVER, that's where things like throttle tip in, etc, come into play in calculating your Commanded AFR, so you read your TPS and say ok you're pushing the foot down, add more fuel since the MAF reading will be slightly delayed. Then you don't have the throttle lag like you're talking about with the MAF systems you've used. And you have an actual measured reading on your airflow, instead of a calculated one.

I'm just not sure how much of that is possible in the DSM stuff. I would guess most if not all, as the ecu i'm using is an 89 mustang, and can do that.

So again from what I've found, it's more work to setup a MAF, but you'll keep more accurate AFR as you always know how much air is going into your engine, wheras with MAP it can only estimate. But in the case of turbos, maybe estimating is good enough if you're not trying to max out every last bit?


Honestly from everything I've read, both can be tuned almost equally, it just sounds like most are saying use whatever you're more comfortable with, there are slight advantages either way, and both require a decent amount of tuning knowledge to get setup correctly and get best performance from.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Headed out for the FBody Track rental day today.

Great day for racing. Some pretty high carnage rate though. Buddies Nova fragged the rear end, another Nova broke it's trans. Saw a G8 break something in the rear end and the owner had to go get a Uhaul nox truck and trailer to get it home. Saw a few other pushed back from the starting line.

Saw a killer homebuilt 40's Volvo Panel truck with LS power. Ran mid 11's on it's first outing to the track. Guy built everything himself including the frame.

My Runs:
12.49 @ 110.5
12.68 @ 110.5 Spun tires bad
12.37 @ 110.3
12.34 @ 111.6
12.36 @ 111.2
12.27 @ 111.1 New best!
12.39 @ 110.8
12.34 @ 110.7

Most 60's were in the 1.7x
Turbo was spiking to 24 psi and falling off. Had to richen the MAFT Translator as far as it would go and still had a little knock with 112 in the tank. DC were around 92%.

Saw the Frankendart in person, nice car.

Also saw the Frankenstang. Mustang with a 4G63 runnin mid 9's.

I'm really happy with the consitency on the low side of the 12's.

[awd4kicks]

Simply AMAZING Chris! You just keep getting better with that 14b...

HUGE Props to you for sticking it out man!

[black92_tsi_awd]

Thanks.

I was actually doing the happy dance when I got home. Ask Pam, it's not pretty.

It's the 12.2x that I should have gotten last year at Vicory day. The mph was there but I couldn't shift fast enough with the trans getting ready to frag. So it was a long wait!

[93dsmowner]

Wow Chris...

That's incredible. I'll be happy cracking 12's next pass

[dualdj1]

Congrats, awesome job!

I could see a stang being pretty mean with one of those in it. The 2300s are fairly decent as is with a turbo, but not as good of a design as the dsm 4 valve heads.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Worked on my hacked intake manifold tonight. I found a guy on NABR and DSMTALK running a cut stock intake to shorten the runners and welding a alumimun plenum box on it. Started doing the same. Hopefully I can post up some pictures tomorrow.

Been reading up on the DSmap software, definitly has some possibilities. Just need to save up for the Ostrich chip emulator that plugs into the EPROM.

[awd4kicks]

Pictures...

[black92_tsi_awd]

Cutting Al with a router right now...

[93dsmowner]

Worked on my hacked intake manifold tonight. I found a guy on NABR and DSMTALK running a cut stock intake to shorten the runners and welding a alumimun plenum box on it. Started doing the same. Hopefully I can post up some pictures tomorrow.

Been reading up on the DSmap software, definitly has some possibilities. Just need to save up for the Ostrich chip emulator that plugs into the EPROM.

You can borrow my Ostrich.

If I can get ahold of a chip lol

[black92_tsi_awd]

93dsmowner
Thanks for the offer. Working on gathering the IAT/MAP sensors. Going to have to make a new extended TB elbow to replace where my UICP has the MAF. Going to put the IAT bung there also.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Pictures of my Redneck Bridgeport

Attached File(s)

 sawsall_rough.jpg ( 72.39K ) Number of downloads: 8
 Jig.jpg ( 33.56K ) Number of downloads: 8
 set_for_milling.jpg ( 36.09K ) Number of downloads: 9
 milling.jpg ( 33.45K ) Number of downloads: 13
 milled.jpg ( 63.69K ) Number of downloads: 8

 

[dualdj1]

can you use a GM 3 bar sensor? My understanding is that you want at least a 3 bar, or a 4 bar for boosted apps. There's some of the GM ones pretty cheap on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-3-Bar-Ma...sQ5fAccessories

[93dsmowner]

93dsmowner
Thanks for the offer. Working on gathering the IAT/MAP sensors. Going to have to make a new extended TB elbow to replace where my UICP has the MAF. Going to put the IAT bung there also.

Hah no problem. I have mine on the pipe before the TB elbow. Most guys do it right after the intercooler.

Optimally, you would run a phenolic spacer to isolate the manifold from the heat that is transferred from the head and place it in the manifold... but since Jackal incorporates IAT compensation, it isn't as vital.

can you use a GM 3 bar sensor? My understanding is that you want at least a 3 bar, or a 4 bar for boosted apps. There's some of the GM ones pretty cheap on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-3-Bar-Ma...sQ5fAccessories

I am running a GM 3 bar map sensor.

BOV should have its own line, FPR should have its own (or t with gauge), WGA should be off the J-Pipe, and MAP by itself as short as possible.

I'm pumped to see you drop some tenths making the switch, Chirs!

[dualdj1]

sorry should've quoted, was responding to black92_tsi_awd

[black92_tsi_awd]

Put the Talon in the ditch Monday and ran over a "Please Slow Down Children at Play" sign...

Dammit, broke the front spoiler and cut the rear brake line somehow.

[mitsu90]

Glad your ok. The car can be fixed..

[black92_tsi_awd]

It was a sloooowwww speed crash. Pretty stupid of me. Gonna crawl under it this week and check for damage.

[Patterson353]

let me know if you need parts