DSM race weights Options

[JMoushon]

Simple question.

Can I get a FWD down to 2300lbs realistically? (2150 wet + me = 2320)

Gross, what does anallube weigh?

[soccerdude61587]

170 lbs you big fatty!

[KOU In3]

I'm pretty sure it's worked its way under 2500 (no driver) with some of his recent work on the car.

Taking 500 pounds out of the car shouldn't be a problem. 600 starts to get a bit tougher.

If you start cutting on things and ditching seatbelts, etc. to go lighter weight it gets a bit simpler.

I'm assuming you'll be ditching the AC, PS, stock seats and seatbelts, etc.?

[akamiami]

it was right at 2500 (+/- 20 lbs.), then I added the cage which was worth it IMHO even though I haven't weighed it with the cage (I'd put a conservative estimate at 100 lbs cage weight). I'm really interested in seeing exactly what the car weighs with a cage myself.

2300 for a FWD should be a cakewalk for you.

Travis is right too. When you look at actually spending big money to get lighter, then the possibilities really start to open up (think custom cf components). I'd think you could conceivably approach 2000 lbs if you got aggressive with it.

[akamiami]

I just noticed you were figuring in your weight as well. That changes things a good deal naturally.

Ranta would be the guy to talk to about light FWD's. He's got the most experience around here by far.

[xian 1g]

you might want to talk to ranta about a diet too... i've heard he's pretty light. I'd like to know what he does way so i can start dropp'n down for vicary day...

[JMoushon]

I actually talked to Ranta the other day, I'll see what he thinks.

I'm taking out everything behind the front seats for sure, no a/c, rear belts, etc.

For the track, I'll probably take everything but the dash and the driver's seat.

According to taboo's hp calculator, I need 380 whp to get into the 10s at 2500lbs. Add 100hp for good measure, enter in the DSM bs factor, and I should be good for low 12s.

[awdnot2]

Our race car weighs 2475 lbs without me in it and its AWD. The T-case, driveshaft, rear diff, rear suspension and sub frame weigh about 300 lbs more than the FWD's. So that puts it a 2175. We have a full roll cage, a full exhuast 3.5" (which will be for sale soon), parachute and mounting and 30 lbs of nitrous related items. I estimate at least 200lbs from those items. Now we're at 1975 lbs. 2150 should be doable without the aid helium filled tires.

[ranta18]

Hey, I weigh a hefty 140 lbs...LOL. Dam fast metabolism. I eat just as much if not more than most people (other than Kris, he puts food down like beer).

I'm not up on the DSM weights, but from what I've seen and done, there is a lot of things you can do. Hell, I dropped 400 lbs from my Civic without compromising its safety when it was a street car. Now if you going to make it a full drag car, thats where the real fun starts. If I got a look at the car I could say more specific things to do.

Look over the entire car. If its not there to help you go fast, stop, turn, or live through a crash, it doesn't belong there. There are many things that can be done withoug spending much money. Then there are things like chromoly suspension parts that save weight, but you sure pay for it.

Tools to have:
The regulars (screwdrivers, wrenches, sockets, etc)
Jig saw
Sawsall
Die grinder with cutting wheel
Putty knife
Dry ice
Blow torch
Aluminum sheeting
Rivets and rivetor

[xian 1g]

Now we're at 1975 lbs

----wow!!!!!!!!!


james - yank that dash out. there's a lot of wait there... have you scraped out all the sound dampening material? i'll lend a hand there.

under the car there some random pooper metal too.

look around for brackets that used hold crap in. door panels, and then pop the plastic fasteners out of the door.

how far are you willing to go?

ranta... 140. i can do that easy as pie. when my mouth was wired shut, i dropped down to 109 at six four. 140 won't be a problem.

[soccerdude61587]

im at 6 foot and weigh a constant 145

[haunter]

when my mouth was wired shut

god that was a sad time around the shop



ya know james, my car is under 2300 already, lets just swap motors/tranny and call it a day

[awd4kicks]

+/-3250 with driver in the 12's...What are weight savings?

[mark95turbo]

+/-3250 with driver in the 12's...What are weight savings?

And that was like back in 2000 marcus.

[awd4kicks]

It was a Long time ago, but that was actually October of 2002. Engine ran good through July of 2003 when I took it out at Midnight Mayhem in Cordova in hopes of a 12.5 or lower at the same weight and with the same turbo. Engine said No More.

Just imagine how fast that full weight car could have gone in the last 1 1/2 years had the engine held up or one of the many transplant attempts worked out!

Sorry for the 'jack' James

[KOU In3]

+/-3250 with driver in the 12's...What are weight savings?

Probably what kept you from taking the national 14b record at the time.

[JMoushon]

Darryl, since you have experience on the more serious racing level...

What are the serious fwd guys running? Do they find it easier to get the quick et's due to the lower weight? I would think that with the right suspension and traction set-up it would be relatively easy to get competitive 60' times, and run out an awd on the big end. Am I anywhere near accurate?

[ranta18]

No matter what, less weight = lower ets. Simple power to weight ratio. What shocks most people (and what most don't know) is that on a full all out drag FWD that other car that we shall not name, you can spend $70 on the entire shock and coilover setup and pull 1.3-1.4 60fts. With the right traction bar in the front and rear of course.

[awd4kicks]

BTW - What were your 60ft. times when you ran the high 12's Ranta?

It would be an incredible buy if we could buy anything that would drop our FWD or AWD's for that matter into the 1.3-1.4 60ft. times for under $100!! Heck, Darryl is still trying to get his 9 second car into the 1.4 60ft. times and my best has been a 1.70...

[awdnot2]

James

The FWD that other car that we shall not name guys are lighter so of course it helps the ET's. The 60 foots for them are not a issue at all. They pull 1.3's and 1.4's no problem. The AWD helps out when the track goes south. When the track is bad you'll see excessive wheelspin off the line and sometimes wheelspin mid track. Hell we've had swheelspin at mid track. The top end pull on the FWD is crazy.

We had 1.4 60's in 03 and then dropped to 1.5's in 04. After talking to John we have some changes that should get us back into the 1.4's although its more than
$100.

[JMoushon]

I appreciate all the input fellas. The idea of a 1.4 60' time is unbelieveable! I'm hoping to get into the 1.8 range with slicks. Keep the good info coming! You guys rock.

[ranta18]

I ran a 1.99 60ft on street tires when I ran the 12. I had 425/375 springs, rear shocks, and a front traction bar. But its a different ball game when it comes to slicks and a drag car.

Slicks + Street car = front traction bar, coilovers w/ 300-500 lb front springs and 900+ lb rear springs, and adjustable front and rear shocks. The stiff rear springs will keep the back from dropping which in turn keeps the front from raising and the tires from spinning. Adjusting the rear shocks to stiff also help keep it from dropping. When shifting, you don't want the weight transfer to be too violent so a stiffer spring on the front and some adjustability with the shocks would be good. You can get custom coilovers from Ground Control for a good price.

Slicks + Drag car = front traction bar, rear traction (aka wheelie) bar, stock shocks ( or adjustable if you want, but not absolutely needed), and cheap pooper coilovers (or a custom set if you want) w/ 300-500 lb front springs and 100-300 lb rear springs. With the soft rear springs it allows the car to sit on the rear bar right away. Thats what you want. When it drags on the rear bars it keeps the front from coming up and spinning the tires and also increases your wheelbase so you have better control of the car. Stock shocks or adjustable shocks set on low allow the rear to sit down quick also. I know Clay Sloan runs stock shocks on cheap coilovers and pulls 1.4's and Mark Brauning (NDRA All-Motor Champion) runs some sort of shock on cheap coilovers and pulls 1.3-1.4's. I've also seen several pro's on Honduh-Tech post that they run a very soft spring in the rear when running a rear bar.

Thats just some tech info from Honduh racers. Not sure if it will apply to the DSM's but I would imagine a FWD is a FWD no matter what. I could see the AWD guys sepending a lot more to get things to work good.

[awd4kicks]

Good info! I was aware of the street car settings but not spring weights and I had no idea what the spring and shock settings were on the strip cars. I always heard about the longer wheel base effect with the wheely bar, but I figured that meant to cut down on weight transfer. The point about the car being easier to handle/control with the wheely bar is interesting.

BTW - I've got some ideas for a track only AWD.

[JMoushon]

Ranta: You keep mentioning the front traction bar. Although I have seen pics of many different bars, I have never actually seen one mounted on a car. What exactly does it tie together? I'm assuming it helps to get rid of wheelhop under a lot of power, but where does it go? I know that the Mitsu and Honduh front subframes and suspension are completely different, but I could perhaps fab a similar bar if I knew it's purpose.

Mr Ranta also informed me that the rear bars cannot be pre-loaded, which is a nice bit of info I would have never though of when designing my set-up. Thanx.

[ranta18]

You are correct, the rear bars can not be pre-loaded and you must be able to spin the rear wheel(s) before going down the track (stagging). At least thats the NDRA and NHRA rules. Brauning got some heat from this last year because they would do the burnout and then set the bar. Everyone thought they were pre-loading it. It would look fine in the pits, but remember when the tires expand after the burnout, it will bring the front end up and rear bar wheel down.

The front traction bar ties the lower control arm to a solid piece. Basically you have this big chromoly bar that goes across the front of your car. Then you have 2 arms that angle towards the lower control arms and bolt to it. The arms have ajustable eyes on each end so you can load the bars. When launching they keep the lower control arms from moving and help reduce wheel hop and wheel spin. The angle and location of the bars is important because they must not bind up when turning or when the suspension goes up and down. Full-Race makes the best that other car that we shall not name ones. Check out their website here for info and pictures http://www.full-race.com/civic-traction-bars.html

[JMoushon]

Seems like a solid piece, and the concept/design make sense. The advertisement says there is no welding required, but what tabs/brackets to the bars connect to on the LCA?

[akamiami]

I know a fella who has a traction bar on his street FWD and he didn't seem to think it was doing much for him. I don't want to name names, but he has a car that we can't talk about.

[JMoushon]

I know a fella who has a traction bar on his street FWD and he didn't seem to think it was doing much for him. I don't want to name names, but he has a car that we can't talk about.

So the point of saying that was....

[akamiami]

it was a roundabout way of saying that your fwd is retarded and you're a stupid head for trying to make the doody go faster than watching hair grow. ......caca head.

I just watched 'the villiage' and it seems to me we treat the other car that we don't talk about the same way they treat the things that they didn't speak of.

[ranta18]

I'm not sure where you could bolt it to on your car. I'd have to look. Can't remember what the DSM LCA looks like exactly. On the Hondas, there is a bolt that you take out, put this [ shaped bracket on the bolt, then put the bolt back in. Then the traction bar arm bolts to the [ shaped bracket. You could weld the [ shaped bracket on I would imagine. Here is a great picture:

[JMoushon]

KriSS: I love you, you make me randy. You better have anallube in tip top shape if you want to keep talking. You and your AWD superiority. I laugh in your face.

Ranta: I understand now. Thanx much. It looks like it takes all the potential play out of the LCA, kinda like replacing the bushings with spherical bearings.

[ranta18]

Rear traction bar pictures:
Clay - http://www.imagineengineering.com/clay.jpg

Brauning - http://www.dprracing.com/Media/DPR%20Drive...g/brauning8.jpg

Two different styles of mounting the top bars. Its up to you, but as long as they tie into the cage it should be fine. Most do it as Clay does with them higher. There have been people who damaged the unibody by attaching the bars to the unibody instead of the cage.

[JMoushon]

What are Clay's bars attached to? It looks like they are tied into the body (sheetmetal).

[ranta18]

No, there is a horzontal bar in the back that is attached to the cage with 4 angled bars. You can kind of see it here:

http://www.imagineengineering.com/clay2.jpg

http://www.imagineengineering.com/clay3.jpg

[awd4kicks]

where do you get a (wheely bar) wheel that will hold up to that kind of load?

[JMoushon]

You make one, silly!

[ranta18]

Not sure. I'm sure someone makes them,but I know Clay and Brauning made their own. I think thats what most people do. Chromoly all the way. I have a source for Chromoly and a place that can TIG it, so I'm making my cage and traction bars.

[JMoushon]

Not sure. I'm sure someone makes them,but I know Clay and Brauning made their own. I think thats what most people do. Chromoly all the way. I have a source for Chormoly and a place that can TIG it, so I'm making my cage and traction bars.

See? Not all Honduh guys are helpless!