Car keeps dieing!, When I push in clutch. Options

[BudmannG]

So here is the story that goes with the problem.

I went out to tune earlier and seen a 91 awd out of the coener of my eye. I thought to myself, I have to go by and make sure that is what it was. So I did that, and yes it was a 91 AWD red with the stupid wing on it like the fast and the furious. So I stopped and talked to them.

After I left there, I went down the blacktop that is close to me. I did a 3rd gear pull and it felt strong and pulled hard. I looked at the log I took from that run and no knock all the way through the power band. So I turn around and try it again. This time my pc had shut down on me so no log. But when I get to the stop sign it is idling way low, so I tap the gas to give it a rev and see if I can bring it back up. Didn't work out like I was wanting it to.

I then pull away from the stop sign and go through first then second. I hit third and laid it to the floor! It took off and did what it was supposed to for me. Then I push the clutch in to coast to a stop and the motor dies. WHY? I don't know! So I coast all the way to my turn and let out the clutch in fourth gear and it catches and starts. No big deal right, WRONG!

I got to the next stop and it dies again. When I got to my drive way it did it again. WHY? I know I got a boost leak at the PCV. But it shouldn't cause this thing to die like it is. I am confused about what is going on. I checked all the settings in DSM Link and they are the same as they have been.

Does anyone have any ideas?

If you don't remember what I am running.
3" gm mafs and translator
front mount w/ hard piping
Hallman MBC set at 19psi
50 trim turbo
44mm wastegate w/ open dump
turbo xs rfl BOV open dump
850cc FIC injectors

The last pull I did it had 2.5 counts of knock at 3200 rpm and went away at 4700 rpm. And my A/F ratio doesn't get any lower than 10.00.

[MidwestDSM]

I had a throwout bearing sieze on me once and that caused a similar issue. Also could be ECU related I'm sure. Anything and everything that goes wrong with these cars can usually be traced back to something in the trans or the ECU it seems.

[turbohcar]

Did you lube the input shaft with grease and pack the throw out bearing with grease as well when you put the trans back in?

[BudmannG]

Yeah I did all that about 4 months ago. If that is the case why is it just now starting this.
The car will idle when in the driveway in nuetral.

[turbohcar]

Do another boost leak check and try to fix the PCV problem, something's not right. It took Nick's car quite awhile before the car started having the problems.

[BudmannG]

Well Brett I think you were on the right track. I checked everything this morning and got it all put back together. Took it for a ride and everything was fine until I took it out to do some third gear pulls. I got to do one pull and let off to coast and what do you know it did it again. I stopped and checked out my log on link. Once I did that I turned it around and headed for home.
I went ahead and tried another third gear pull to see if the setting I put in cleaned up the log. Got to the stop sign and it died again. This time it was even hard to start. So I started it and got it running with my foot on the gas to keep it running. I went to let out on the clutch and it made a noise like I wasn't in gear all the way (grinding). So I made sure it was in gear, and sure enough it was. So I started to let out on it again and the same noise. I went ahead and drove home from there.
Now while in my driveway if I even tried to put it in gear it would make that same noise no matter what gear I tried.
Now I get to tear the damn thing apart again and do it all over again. I am very unhappy with this car right now.

The good news is I got my car to pull hard now all the way through the power band. And there is no knock what so ever. Hurray for me!

[treydawgs4g63T]

What the hell are the odds of this! I have been having the same problems today and sure as shit it is the throwout bearing and throwout bearing fork ( or whatever its called )

[BudmannG]

I had noticed the last couple of weeks that something wasn't right. My idle would vary everytime I put the clutch in. Some times it wouldn't idle over 500 rpm.
At least it is a quick fix and not something major, like the ECU.

[turbohcar]

Budmann, put a washer behind the pivot ball on the trans when you put it back in there if you haven't yet. That really helped with my disengagement point on my car. If anybody wants it, I know there is a Talon in Bill Smith Auto Parts' lot in Bloomington that has the pedal assembly welded up!

Here, this website isn't up anymore but I went to the Wayback Machine and pulled it up.

Website is www.taboospeedshop.com

The perfect clutch setup
http://web.archive.org/web/20041021213358/...op.com/DPCS.htm

ACT2600 explained
http://web.archive.org/web/20040205105515/...hop.com/ACT.htm

Removal and welding of the clutch pedal assembly
http://web.archive.org/web/20040205142011/...al_assembly.htm

[BudmannG]

Very interesting read, Thanks man on all the help.

[turbohcar]

I guess, now that I think about it, there's a possibility you've got too much slack in the clutch linkage. Welding the assembly should take care of that for you as the stock bushings are just plastic and wear out pretty quickly with an aftermarket clutch.

Either way, somehow your clutch isn't getting disengaged all the way.

[BudmannG]

Do these technics go for a 2G also. Is the clutch pedal in a 2G weak just like the 1G?
I plan on shimming the clutch fork when I have it out.

After I read all that, I figured out that was the problem with my 1G that I had and traded for my 2G.

[MidwestDSM]

harhar, I hope your cars aren't down for months like mine was when my TOB went out. Durr for laziness.

[BudmannG]

Well pulled the tranny today. It only took me a couple of hours with chasing my kids and all.

Before I pulled it out I did get down and check the clutch to see if it was tight or hard to push by hand. Ha----- The damn thing wasn't or isn't disengaging. So does this mean the pressure plate is bad? I look down at the pressure plate from the top and all the fingers are setting flat no arching out. The throwout bearing lost all the grease but still turned freely and slide like butter up and down the shaft. No sexual puns please.

[turbohcar]

They are supposed to sit mostly flat when it's tightened down. The clutch fork shouldn't be able to disengage the clutch if you're moving it by hand. That's why they use hydraulic clutch systems because the hydraulic system is able t create much much more force than your foot or arm actually could.

Something else is wrong that we're overlooking. At least the TOB is good. Throw a washer behind the pivot ball and put everything back together. Then adjust the clutch with a friend using the guide I linked to above. Mine was setup exactly like that and was perfect for drag racing and still good for everyday driving. While adjusting, have the person depress the clutch pedal down and up while you watch the slave cylinder actuate the clutch fork and make sure it's getting adequate throw. The links I posted above will provide reference to what is acceptable and what isn't.

Sumthin's got mee all cornfused!

EDIT: Something else I forgot to mention is if you tightened the nut on the clutch adjustment on the pedal assembly. If that nut is loose enough, the adjustment rod can back off and create symptoms like this. Check to make sure it's adjusted properly.

[BudmannG]

I was also thinking it might be the clutch master cylinder. Maybe?

WHen I checked the clutch fork I could move it back and forth. There was no pressure on the fork at all. It was like the tranny was out of the car and you where moving the fork for smoothness.

[turbohcar]

Possibly, but I wouldnt' go throwing parts at it just yet. Put it all back together and do the clutch test. If it doesn't move it very much, the master or slave cylinder may be the culprit.

[BudmannG]

Read the last reply I had to edit.

[Bustedsm]

I'll make a list for you later of things that will fix it, I promise

[turbohcar]

Misadjustment of the clutch pedal
Bad Slave Cyl.
Bad Master Cyl.
Low on hydraulic fluid (brake fluid goes in the clutch system)

[BudmannG]

Adjustment hasn't been messed with since I got the car.

Slave could be a possiblity, But there is no fluid anywhere around it or coming out of it.

Master Is a real good possibility, I looked late last night and it has a drip on the inside of the car but nothing on the floor. The flat part of the boot has moistuer on it also.

Fluid is at the top!

[turbohcar]

There doesn't have to be a leak for it to be faulty. Fluid could be bypassing the seals somewhere else. I.E.: Back into the resivoir while you depress the pedal. Just because the adjustment hasn't been touched since you got it doesn't mean it couldn't have backed off in that time.

Hurry up and get it together, the F-body is hungry!!!

[BudmannG]

I am picking up the master and slave cylinder and a new TOB tomorrow. I just don't trust the one I have. If I put pressure against it I can feel it catching in certain areas.
So that means everything will be new for the clutch.

Now about this washer for the fork. How big does it have to be? Does it set flat against the bell housing? Or just big enough for the ball?

[turbohcar]

You unbolt the ball from the bell housing (it's a ball with a bolt on it basically) and it comes out. You use about a 1/16th -1/8th inch thick washer and just put it between the bell housing and the head of the bolt when you put it back together.

[BudmannG]

Ok I got that.

I am taking this time to fix some other problems like oil leaks every where.
First I have my extra oil pan at a welder friends house. It is going to have a -10 an fitting welded in for the oil return line. Next I am going to pick up a oil cool and lines from asiankid. That will fix another leak that I have. I do have a question, on my oil gauge fitting am I supposed to add pipe tape to it? It is leaking from around there also.

Next I had a problem taking the brake calipers off in the tear down. I took the time to clean them of all rust and greased up ready to go. I took the rotors in and had them turned today also. Just for added precaution!

[turbohcar]

The oil gauge fitting should be pipe thread and won't require thread sealant.

[BudmannG]

Should have pulled the clutch while I had it apart. It is still making the noise it had before. It alsmost sounds like a power steering belt, That is when I am letting out on the clutch.

[turbohcar]

Freakin rediculous is what I'd say!! You don't want to know my answer for your problem right now. It involves selling your car and buying an F-body.

[BudmannG]

Funny thing is man, I went out after I posted this up and moved the car. When I moved it in to the driveway to start tearing her apart again, It stopped making the noise. Every once in awhilie you can hear it wining. But the clutch itself is fine on release. Grabs everytime!!!

[turbohcar]

Did you try the hydraulic test I suggested earlier? The one where you get someone else to stand on the clutch for you and see just how far it actually moves? Make sure your hydraulics are in good working order despite the whining, you don't want it happening again.

[BudmannG]

OK I am beting on the pressure plate. It drove great all day and had a great pedal. Then I sped up in second and let off to make my turn and then it starts again.

[BudmannG]

I am planning on putting the stock pressure plate back in this weekend. I had a couple of questions, If I may.
Will this work with the 6 puck that I have in the car? Will it cause problems at the track for me? Does anyone have a pressure plate they want to sell, LOL?

[awd4kicks]

It will physicaly work Bud. People change and crossbrands/styles of friction disks and pressure plates all the time. That being said, I have no idea how well it will hold or how easy it will be to drive on the street.

I'm not sure I follow how the pressure plate could be the problem though. You are still talking about a screaching noise of some sort aren't you? Did you notice something about the pressure plate when you had it off (Like worn fingers) that is making you suspect the pressure plate?

[turbohcar]

It will physicaly work Bud. People change and crossbrands/styles of friction disks and pressure plates all the time. That being said, I have no idea how well it will hold or how easy it will be to drive on the street.

I'm not sure I follow how the pressure plate could be the problem though. You are still talking about a screaching noise of some sort aren't you? Did you notice something about the pressure plate when you had it off (Like worn fingers) that is making you suspect the pressure plate?

Agreed. Like I said before, those fingers are supposed to be flat or darn near it when you tighten the bolts down. I have a feeling something else is amiss...

[mitsu90]

all you will ever need

[BudmannG]

Is there a way to check the pressure plate? I have narrowed it down to the PP because I have replaced everything else in the clutch system.

[awd4kicks]

Theres no way to check the pressure plate thoroughly without removing the transmission. If you had a bore-scope you may be able to check out some of it through the clutch fork boot. Those are kind of hard to see the big picture with though.

[BudmannG]

First off I have to give out mad props to my cousin Mike. He came down after work and we diagnosed the car. Then we came to the conclusion it has to come out. He stayed and helped me get it out of the car and didn't have too.

Well here it is I was surprised to find that the flywheel bolts had backed out. WOW!!!! So either my dumbass forgot to torque them or they vibrated out on there own. But I did find my problem! I have spare bolts to put in, and I am definetely putting lock tight on them this time.

Here are some pictures for you to gander at.

[turbohcar]

Loc-Tite FTW!

[awd4kicks]

That's not the first time that has happened. Normally when it happens all the bolts begin to back out and the flywheel starts making noise. It's strange that only a couple of bolts were backing out and it's interesting to think how that messed with your clutch disc making noise.

Good find.

[BudmannG]

OH, Don't let the pictures fool you. All of them are loose enough to take out with your fingers. Three of them backed out almost all the way and the other three Had just started on there way out.

When we dropped the tranny I reached down and grabbed the clutch and all to see if it would move. Ha - It moved a whole bunch!

Does anyone know what the torque is supposed to be on these bolts?

[awd4kicks]

Yeah 101 ft/lbs. Just did it, with lock tite.

[treydawgs4g63T]

the flywheel to crank bolts are 90 - 105 ft.lbs ( 95)
pressure plate to flywheel bolts are 9-14 ft. lbs ( 12 )

I have it memerized do to how many times I took mine off!

[turbohcar]

I cranked those babies to 100ft/lbs when I did mine and Loc-tite was applied in generous amounts.

[BudmannG]

I cranked those babies to 100ft/lbs when I did mine and Loc-tite was applied in generous amounts.

Done and Done!

The tranny is back in the car. It is not all together but it is in the car and held with bolts and a mount. So tomorrow I will be putting the finishing touches on it. I hope to have it done fairly early in the day. This way I can take it for a drive and find something else wrong, lol.

Thanks for all the help guys!

[turbohcar]

I cranked those babies to 100ft/lbs when I did mine and Loc-tite was applied in generous amounts.

Done and Done!

The tranny is back in the car. It is not all together but it is in the car and held with bolts and a mount. So tomorrow I will be putting the finishing touches on it. I hope to have it done fairly early in the day. This way I can take it for a drive and find something else wrong, lol.

Thanks for all the help guys!

Good, maybe you'll be in the shape to make it to Vicary Day then?

[BudmannG]

With the way my luck goes this year, I doubt it!

I had it started yesterday and the damn thing smoked like a freight train. If it is not one thing it is another.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Keep at it, you'll get it.!!

What color was the smoke?

[mitsu90]

atleast your car is almost together, mine is still torn apart

[BudmannG]

Keep at it, you'll get it.!!

What color was the smoke?

It is white smoke, I think the seals in the turbo are going out.

[BudmannG]

I think Stitch needs a new turbo or new seals. I was just sitting and idleing at a stop light. The damn thing would just smoke like crazy! The head was redone when I put it together. Although it may be rings, but when I did a compression test it was 165 acrossed the board.
As most of you know I have been having problems with the turbo since I got it. It is doing the same thing that it was when I first got it. It is burping or farting out the turbo. I don't know if this is a sign that the seals need changed in it or not.
So now I am driving a mosqito killer.

[AWD DSM 1]

I think Stitch needs a new turbo or new seals. I was just sitting and idleing at a stop light. The damn thing would just smoke like crazy! The head was redone when I put it together. Although it may be rings, but when I did a compression test it was 165 acrossed the board.
As most of you know I have been having problems with the turbo since I got it. It is doing the same thing that it was when I first got it. It is burping or farting out the turbo. I don't know if this is a sign that the seals need changed in it or not.
So now I am driving a mosqito killer.

If you get pulled over I'd use that line...

Officer, I'm with the CDC. Due to the recent west nile outbreak, I'm fogging the area to prevent the spread of the disease.

[BudmannG]

I think that it has jumped time on me. I don't want to work on it any more.

[BudmannG]

UPDATE!!!!

I checked the turbo and it spins freely. I checked the timing with the light and with DSM Link and it is 5 degrees on the nose. I also pulled each plug wire off while it was running 4, 3, & 2 made the motor run worse when pulled. 1 made no difference when pulled. I then checked my plugs. #1 was black as hell, and the rest look like normal wear.
So I proceeded to do a compression check, this is how the number went starting with the 4th cylinder. 90-100-120-120 That is what the compression on the motor is right now. I checked the oil for water and there is no sign of water there.
I am this [] close to selling it and being done. I have had nothing but problems from the start with this thing. Now it looks like I need a new bottom end for this bitch.

I stopped by a friends shop and borrowed his leak down tester. I hooked it up to number one cylinder and It is pushing air out of four. I plug cylinder four and the air gushes out of cylinder three. Plug cylinder three and all the air goes out the intake and dipstick tube. Number two cylinder seems to be the only good one, there is no air coming out of it at all. Now remember this is just me pumping air into number one cylinder and plugin the rest of them one by one.

No bubbling of the water coolant either. It was passing air out the oil fill hole also.

I am starting to think the worste now. Not a good deal I would say!

That is my out come so far. I have yet to pull the head or do anything to it. I will probably pull it out tomorrow morning. As soon as I get it out and find the problem I will post up.