Black Angel of Death..., What do you think of Grand Nationals? Options

[bigjiggy81]

Thinking about selling my 1g awd project and my 90 300zx and getting an 86 Buick Grand National, the black angel of death as some call them, and also picking up a decent small pickup for daily driving, have any of you guys ran into any GN's or raced any? There are 2 i am looking at, both around 8k and both with about 125k miles, I really want one, to take out to the track every once in a while and also take to car shows and all that, some people love em some people hate em, i kinda like the "joe dirt" look of them, how about ou?

[TSiwrx]

z you say? hmm. what kind? anyway, GN's or turbo regals or whatever they are are fairly hard to come by i would imagine. there used to be two in the morton area that i knew of. other than that i cant think of any for sale.

[bigjiggy81]

1990 300zx with about 135k , 2+2 and plus auto, the slow one of the bumch , havent done any upgrades to her except a 1 piece Z1 driveshaft, for being a 2+2 and auto she is still pretty damn quick, but who knows, where you from?

[turbohcar]

www.turbobuick.com

Personally, I don't really like those things myself. But that's just my opinion. So say you use 8k to buy one of those rare beauties, little to no mods. I take the same 8k and buy a 3k (generous) shell of an 86 Monte Carlo with a tired motor. I now have 5k to spend on a 400ci block that'll really kick some tail versus your slightly modified turbo buick. My point being, unless you're going to buy one for the nostalgic value, there's other ways to make more power cheaper.

[Forcus]

A G-body with 125k miles is probably going to be flat worn out. Suspension, bushings, interior, etc etc. Not that that is that big of a deal but 8k's alot for something that is going to need a ton of work before it's just passable, ya know?

I do like GN's alot but they aren't exactly handling cars until you throw parts at them. Of course if it is just a straight line / show car that's ok.

I don't know they are kind of cool, and rare, it is up to you. But sounds like if you sold that Z and got a pickup that you would have quite a bit to work with moneywise on that DSM.

[Booztd 3]

1990 300zx with about 135k , 2+2 and plus auto, the slow one of the bumch , havent done any upgrades to her except a 1 piece Z1 driveshaft, for being a 2+2 and auto she is still pretty damn quick, but who knows, where you from?

sell em both and buy a turbo Z

Glad people around here are supporting Z1, i know my ass sure has!

[KOU In3]

now have 5k to spend on a 400ci block that'll really kick some tail versus your slightly modified turbo buick. My point being, unless you're going to buy one for the nostalgic value, there's other ways to make more power cheaper.

Umm, I'm not so sure about that. Have you ever seen Wortdog's 'TurboBrick'?

Those things are factory freaks and take very well to mods. I'll admit the buy-in is relatively high but but you'll put one in the 12's, 11's, and 10's more cheaply that the 400 powered Monte IMHO.

[lawngsx]

I raced one in Peoria that I was told later was a methanol injection car....it TOASTED me.

[turbohcar]

Umm, I'm not so sure about that.  Have you ever seen Wortdog's 'TurboBrick'?

Those things are factory freaks and take very well to mods.  I'll admit the buy-in is relatively high but but you'll put one in the 12's, 11's, and 10's more cheaply that the 400 powered Monte IMHO.

I've never seen Wortdog's Turbobuick but I'm sure it's fast. In fact, one of my good friends has one and it is my goal to beat him when my car finally sees some street time.

However, My friend Ryan just built a Street Stock race car. All the parts he put on it are street legal and the best guestimate is that he's making close to 600 whp. (we don't have a dyno but after 25 years of building engines his brother Chris should be able to guess pretty close). Chris is also quoted to have said that if they port the heads and put a roller cam in it for next year, he could be in the upper 700 whp range.

This car is a Smokey and the Bandit edition Trans Am with a Ford nine inch rear and an old two speed manual transmission out of god-knows-what. He built the entire engine for just over 5k. Heres the list:

Marx Carburetor (Holley stripped down and hogged out) by Anderson Performance
Holley Strip Dominator intake manifold
Dart Iron Eagle heads (not ported yet) 2.08 intake 1.60 exhaust
400ci block bored to a 406ci
Crower camshaft
Crower springs and retainers
SRP pistons
DynaTech Headers
Eagle Rods
rebuilt three puck clutch (the last time this clutch was used was in the Daytona 500)
ARP head studs and main studs
Clevite bearings all around
lightweight harmonic balancer and pulley assembly
lightweight driveshaft

This is all that I know of that's on the car. He has money in pushrods, rocker arms and some other things but those are the only performance things I can think of. We ended taking the car to the track two weeks ago (Farmer City) and actually blew the rear end out after a poor start (Ryan had never driven the car on the track before the heat race). But, he got comments from a few fellow racers that they've "never seen a street stock move so fast down the straightaway". Not saying that a turbo Buick wouldn't be faster depending on the application but, you're still going to have a stock Buick versus a healthy modded (rebuilt) Monte Carlo.

[ranta18]

They're nice. My buddy Jeff had one, his dad has one, his bother has one. His dad owns Chris Clark Cars in Morton and is known for having them there for sale. He doesn't have any now that I know of. There are a couple sweet ones crusing around in Pekin. High 13's stock I believe. Tires, chip, ehxaust, intake, etc and 12's is easy to come by.

[MidwestDSM]

I raced one in Peoria that I was told later was a methanol injection car....it TOASTED me.

I tried keeping up with Wort one night when he wasn't even on it, and couldn't do it. From a roll.

[marty]

i destroyed erics white whale in my miata... but he didnt know we were racing

[wortdog]

www.gnttype.org is a wonderful archive of information on the cars.

While they are fast, nowadays they're also a bit rare(only 35,000 Intercooled ones were ever made, 20,000 of which were '87 GNs), which makes parts for them increasingly expensive. GM no longer makes any parts for them at all. Aftermarket aluminum short blocks including alumnium heads are available, but a fully built one will cost $15,000 at a minimum (which isn't bad for a 1500hp capable setup). A small block or a DSM will give you a much better dollar to performance ratio.

If you're willing to forgo the Grand National name, you can save $1000-$2000 by getting a T-Type or Turbo 'T'. The T-Types and Turbo T's are the same car except for being available in any color and they don't have the two-tone GN interior or the GN wheels. They're also about 50lbs lighter due to aluminum wheels and aluminum bumper supports as well as being 4 times rarer than the relatively common '87 GN.

I bet you can find a better deal than 8k for a car with 125k miles on it. My 87 Turbo 'T' w/ 118k on it has a rebuilt motor(around 18,000 on it), a few mods, an almost brand new transmission (maybe 14,000 on it), and pretty decent paint. I doubt I could get much more than 7 for it. I originally purchased it for 3k needing minor bodywork and exceedingly minor powertrain work with 83k miles on it. Now I have about 6,500-7,000 in it total.

I doubt that the 406ci engine described isn't very streetable in reality, and if it is, its not making 600whp. I bet its closer to 450-500whp unless he's revving the shit out of it (doubtful unless he's got solid lifters) or it has a really high compression ratio forcing him to run race gas all the time. You're talking less than 10mpg on the highway with that thing, and there's nothing street legal about those modifications, they're just legal mods for the 'street class' that he runs in. A Turbo Buick can be a practical daily driver(23mpg and pump gas), but you pay for it in initial cost.

[lawngsx]

Wortdog, did I race you? Do you have Torquethrust 2's on your car?

[wortdog]

No, I have stock wheels.

[all_wheel_envy]

i dont know much aout them but my buddy has two of them and i think one is for sale for 3500 has a different motor and a few mods

[bigjiggy81]

a grand national or a t-type? i am just leary of the high buy in price but that is not a bad price at all , do u know what mods it has done to it and how many miles on the body and miles on the motor?

[turbohcar]

The street stock motor is totally streetable. The only things you would need to change would be changing it into a street car with your selection of transmission and a street style clutch/torque converter. It does run very high compression which requires it to run 100 octane + but that can be changed with a different set of (likely less expensive) pistons and a different cam. The only other thing it would need would be a large exhaust running through some good mufflers. Sure, you'd get crappy gas mileage and the thing would be a beast for the street. It's JMHO that if I would invest money in a late eighties domestic car, it would have to have some small block balls in it rather than a force fed six. I think it just comes down to a matter of preference really.

[natedogg]

Everybody has a different definition of whats streetable. Streetable doesn't have to mean street legal.

[awd4kicks]

Oh boy the whole 'Streetable' argument....hang on fellas this may be a long one.

Personally (Key word) I feel streetabiliy is more of a range than one certain level.

There are cars that have 4 wheels with a fiberglass shell that represents a regular manufactured car body and roll on a street called a drag strip. on the other end of the spectrum there are brand spanking new electric hybrid cars out there that can roll accross the entire united states without breaking overheating or suprisingly using much more gas that it take the other car to go 1/4 mile. Obviously there is a huge difference in performance.

For the 'Fastest Street car' races found in Hot Rod magazine a car has to be able to drive like ten miles without breaking or overheating...beyond that it's anyones game. And they build those biatches right to the limit where they would spew something if they went 50 feet past that 10 mile test run.

To me the DSM offers up a beautifull combination of performance and true streetability. The turbo offers great daily driver abilities when off boost and awesome performance potential when on boost.

My aim for the DSM has always been to take down the high rolling vettes and possibly vipers that prowl the streets to the extent of my gear limited speed. To me that means I have to be able to go on the same roadways, for the same distances, and not worry about overheating, bad idling, or whatever. That's exceptional streetability with very nice performance.