DSMCentral Member Work Shop, The next Level? Options

[awd4kicks]

I have had discussions with a couple other core DSMCentral members and I feel the next level of DSMCentral may be upon us.

More to the point I propose a shop space with a vehicle lift that can be accessible to members on a share plan. I do not want to open up a shop for profit necessarily, but one that will be a support point for DSMCentral members and a place to congregate. The place I have in mind is near the intersection of Rt24 and Rt116 (Between Peoria, E. Peoria, and Germantown Hills). There are a few options to this shop area. I can procure a one stall heated and air conditioned space, or a larger 2 stall long heated space, or a very large non heated or air conditioned space. Any of the locations will include my lift and a garage door to get away from the out door elements. The landlord is pretty laid back performance oriented guy that I am friends with.

The tentative plan would be each member brings their own tools and has the lift for a predesignated amount of time. This time will be preplanned on a calender for the most part, but I'm sure there will be a lot of open time where members can just pull their vehicle on for some quick repairs or check overs. All paying members will be welcome at anytime we designate the shop to be open. ALL DSMCentral members will be welcome to hang out while paying members are there. The local club house so to speak.

The details need to be worked out and the membership fee will vary between $25-$40 a month for full access. Regardless of the final amount or details of the shop, a years worth of membership will need to be prepaid once the details are hammered out. This will ensure our ability to procure the building for a full year and cut down on collecting payments hassles. Depending on the number of paying members, non-paying members may be able to rent the lift and shop space for small periods of time when it is empty (I'm thinking say $25 for half a day...WAY cheaper than going to a repair shop, but more expensive than Full membership.)

For reference the cheapest shop rate I know of was SloPny at $50-$55 per hour. That included an experienced tech to do the work, but at that rate one full day at the DSMCentral workshop can pay for it's self for the full year.

Some may wonder about insurance hassles and I don't plan on having any. The Land lord will have his appropriate building insurance, but all members will be required to sign a waiver for any problems, injury,loss or damage. The price will surely be too high if we have to get some sort of insurance. I will be checking into the legalities and details of this in the mean time.

So please make a selection on the Poll and pass along any ideas or questions you may have right here.

Thanks!
Marcus

[AWD DSM 1]

Sounds awesome Marcus! I probably won't participate as a full member since my garage is fairly well set up, but I'd defianately pay for use of the lift every now and then, and hang out in between!!

[akamiami]

25-40 a month? that's a steal at that rate. excellent deal.

how would you feel about people subcontracting their wrenches out for other projects? i.e. if they worked on a car for money that was not theirs.

[awd4kicks]

Good questions Kris.

If some one were to pay a full year membership, they could use their aloted time on who ever's car they wanted I suppose.

As far as loaning/renting your wrenches or experience I figure that being in the DSMCentral Shop will bring those that need help and those that can help together in one place.

Using this place as business will have to be thought out and monitored closely. The low rates are not meant to make profiteers money, but make an inexpensive place for us all to use and enjoy our DSM's in.

[mitsu90]

count me in

[xian 1g]

In all honesty, I'm not infavor of such an idea. I don't think that you are looking at all the hassle, time and finances that will come out of your pocket to set this up, especially as non-profit organization.

1. Key access. You pay a year, you get a key? Otherwise, you have to show up every time someone wants to come and go.

2. Tools. Who's supplying them? if you are, prepare to have them lost, stolen, or broken... Happens all the time. Especially if everyone has key access, then it becomes the 'who dunnit?' With a bunch of shady ass fuckers that won't admit to it. Why is the lift arm broke? The compressor doesn't work anymore? My 17 gear end is gone, my 1/2" driver 6 point 17mm deep well is also gone, and I'm doing suspension work. And of course everyone says that they would fess up, but you'd be amazed at how things get broke or lost and no one knows anything.

I would recommend a no tools at the shop... Just like if you want to be a mechanic somewhere, bring your own tools, if you don't got it... you don't got it.

3. If everyone has key access, there needs to be a sign up sheet for times when you can come in. Otherwise you are occasionally going to run into scheduling cluster fucks.

4. You do understand that you are basically setting yourself up for a full time job that doesn't pay? I personally, just don't think that you are thinking ALL the way through the situation. You would be amazed at all the little things, phone callse, emails, etc. that are going to eat up your time for no money. Welcome to not having a life, for free.

From joe shmo's stand point it's great, I pay $40 a month, get to use all of your tools, lift, etc... But from the man in charge stance, it sucks.

There is a lot more than those minor points, but this thread has been done on cii a couple of times, and the truth of the matter is that in 'theory' it sounds and looks real good. But in real life, especially for you, the man in charge, it just sucks. You are better off starting a for profit shop for all the time, effort and money that will be invested.

I would highly recommend calling Travis to talk to him about set up of such an operation as he has more experience in the 'owning a shop' than I do, that and I believe when cii peeps were talking about the same thing he had some other points that people had not forseen, that I don't remember.

For reference the cheapest shop rate I know of was SloPny at $50-$55 per hour. That included an experienced tech to do the work, but at that rate one full day at the DSMCentral workshop can pay for it's self for the full year.

and for refrence. Your paid advertiser KOUmotorsports charges $40 an hour.

[SCCA Stang]

As far as the theft part is concerned... I have dealt with my fair share of theifs.

The best way I have found to combat it, is lock your shit up.
Not that I, in any way, shape or form condone theft, but if you leave your tools, parts, electronics, ect laying around, then it is your own falt if your shit gets stolen.
If you lock your shit up and it gets stolen, then you have proof of forced entry and then you can do something about it, ei insurance, cops ect. or at least something to bitch about.

As far as broken tools, all of mine are Craftsman and they have a lifetime warranty, so break as many of them as you want.... just leave me the broken ones and I will get them swapped back out for new.

I love the idea of a shop that we can all hang out it and work on our cars, have a central area to get together to do a group project, ect...

it would however be nice to have a place with a couple of bays.... we all know how long DSM projects can take.... I wouldn't want to pay for a years worth of membership, show up to a couple of get-togethers and have only enough shop time to change a set of spark plugs because Joe Snuffy did an engine, trani, suspension, interior swap that took 10 months on the only lift/bay in a building that I pay $40 to use too.

I like the idea of a sign out sheet to do the scheduling, just one thing there is there has got to be a time limit (in days) that you can spend on one specific project... see previous subject line ^

That would be the only issue because I can tell you that I for sure won't be leaving any of my tools or parts laying around to get swiped/broken, ect.

[natedogg]

Even unheated, there are only about 2 months out of the year here where the temp occasionally gets so unbearably cold that you can't work on the car.

[mitsu90]

who needs a heated garage if it get that cold a couple space heaters will do the trick.

[awd4kicks]

Here are a few counterpoints for those that have been made:

I stand corrected - our very own KOUMotorsports has the lowest hourly rate I know of at $40 per hour.

I owned SloPny Auto Repair as a partner and ran it for a year. I do not intend on the DSMCentral work Shop being this kind of shop.

This work shop is not meant to take work away from shops with technicians. This is meant for people that are mechanically inclined or want to be. There will be no overly long projects done at the work shop due to the time constraints of sharing the lift.

DSMCentral Shop - will not have any full time people at the shop

DSMCentral shop - is not a business to repair other peoples vehicles

There will be no tools left at the shop - so each member will bring their own

Each paying member will have a scheduled amount of days they can use the shop

If a project runs over it will need to be buttoned up and pushed out to make room
(So good planning and having most of the parts ahead of time will be required)

Only paying members will have access to the shop without supervision
(We will work out something where all paying members are responsible for the area - as in refunding loss or repairs as a group at the end of the year to keep everyone on the up & up and keeping an eye on things. Watch your own)

These are just preliminary details and the rest will be worked out along the way. But nothing brought up so far is any surprise or insurmountable issue.

[mitsu90]

i for one think this is a great idea i have been putting of fixing my driveshaft becuse i don't feel like laying on the ground, if this shop was open the lift would be great insperation to get my shit fixed. and i would agree to a end of the year pay to fix, although i hope there is not alot to fix i would hate to think people would abuse such a great deal.

[badbu68]

I would be very interested, possably a paint booth could be made as well?

[mitsu90]

I would be very interested, possably a paint booth could be made as well?

i had this same idea earlyer today

[xian 1g]

Spy:

All tools and such will be brought in by the perspective member using the facility at that time, I most certainly will not be leaving my tools there.

That's the point I'm trying to stress.

There are enough core group members within 5 miles of this structure to open as needed. Schedueling the non-tenured members and keeping the scheduel wont be a problem for the most part, the communication between the group is very high. This Site can even house a scheduel section etc, and temporary passkey codes can be sent via pm...

I still don't think you realize the amount of time and pm trails it is going to take to accomplish this.

I believe most the "Shady assfuckers" you are refering too are in your neck of the woods, not here. That aside, its pretty damn tough to steal a 2500lb car lift, and essential save a few couches, fridge, tv etc... There isnt much there of value.

Don't chuck e-spears. I can make a pretty long list of 'shady assfuckers' in your neck of the woods. All woods have them.

'that aside' I never mentioned the stealing of a lift. the point was tools, or damage to the lift.

4. No phone calls, there is no shop, therfore no phone.

your point 4 contradicts your point 1. quoted above in your own words.

CII and Dsmcentral are two very very seperate entitys. Dsmcentral has had the same core group of members for 5+ years, there is enough stability in the core to push this along and let if thrive.

Yes they are two very different entitys. But, the 'shared shop' is still the same idea. What you are suggesting is five or six of the 'core' members running a non-profit shop. I am saying you are better off running profit shop. You will invest a lot more time and effort than what you think, imho.

Im curious how Travis would have any input that is relevant to this situation, nor do I personally see any opinion he has about it as being relevant, save protecting potential business assets of his, vs giving dsm owners a place to congergate, learn and work side by side with other like minded individuals. Seeing that Kicks has owned a shop, saw all ends of it and still continues to follow his dream, allots him mountains of respect.

Your logic is irrational. How is Markus allotted respect for having owned a shop, and Travis owning a shop not given 'respect'. I think the two best players as far as ideas on how to, and things to look out for would be those two. They both have experience in that field.

Also, I don't see such said thing as hurting KOU business. In fact, it promotes a better interest in the community, grows the community, and helps out actually. Most of the people I see using this, allready wouldn't pay a shop to touch their car for the most part. They, if they must bring their own tools, are probally well set up in their garage already to do what they have to do.

Furthermore, KOUmotorsports has only, and will always support Crebotech, Marcus. Infact, if you go to the KOUmotorsports website, you will notice that rather doing isc rebuilds in house, we supply a link to crebo tech. We have a long good standing relationship with Marcus, and even when he was at slopony, we sent people his way and went to him for our transmission needs.


Hell, I also do believe we sent people your way for business even when you were throwing a big e-tamptrum.

As far as the 40$ an hour charge for the labor rate at KOUmotorsports... Kinda seems in life, you get what you pay for.

Good points however. I could see how some of the Champaign folks would be hesitant about this idea, you wont be able to make use of it as we Peoria based members will.. Just know you all are welcome at DSMcentral. (The name of the site, the name of the club.)

Cheers....

Dan, don't chuck insults and e-spears at me. I don't appreciate it. We have no beef. And quite frankly, you don't make me feel welcome on dsmcentral, or at any dsmcentral event when you act this way online.


overall, in a perfect world, I think the idea is very cool, and helps dsmcentral as well car enthusiasm in the local area out. I honestly think though, that you guys are investing a lot of time, more than you think, imho, to have no life and reap no rewards from it.

Basically, what I'm saying, is that the goals for DSMcentral from this are great. But, for this to run, and run as planned, you are giong to have someone, if not a crew of people that have to act as a manager. A manager to shop, shoe store, whatever, takes a lot of time and effort. I'm just saying becarefull about putting yourself out. there's no need to be childish with me, when I'm looking after your best intrest.. Marcus didn't attack me.

You should take this as helpfull thoughts and concerns, that are being brought to the table. I think Marcus understood better where I was going with my suggestions/ concerns.

[SCCA Stang]

I would be very interested, possably a paint booth could be made as well?

i had this same idea earlyer today

EPA regulations and concerns would be too much to do a paint booth in a Non-for-profit situation...
too many exhaust regulations and insurance would be a must to save the main "host" from any wrongful death suit in the case that somebody passed out and died from the fumes.
I almost think that that would be a concern even with a lift in the shop... what if it fails and someone gets crushed... I understand that is highly unlikely with all of the safety equipment most modern lift manufacturers install on their products... but still possable.... what protects the main "host" from a wrongful death suit or such.... I understand that there was mention of a liability waiver, but does that endlessly protect the "host" or landlord.

I am just trying to help protect Marcus or whomever look at every possable situation here.
I understand that Marcus has run a shop and all, I am just trying to help out here.

As far as all of the suggestions from Xian and KOU... I think it is very commendable that they are looking out for the best interest of DSMCentral, Marcus, and all of the people that are potential "renters" of this shop.
I think that any input from them should be concidered as well as input from Marcus, SPY, and anyone else that has idea's.
The more info you look at before you start a project, chances are overall better plans will be emplimented and bottom line, better chance of success.

Hope this helps,

Ben

[natedogg]

Xian, Spy, please take any further personal discussion to PM's.

As far as the shop goes, Xian, I think you are making it much more complicated than it has to be. Its as simple as this. All paying members pay for the year up front. Upon payment they receive a key to the shop. They bring their own tools and take those tools home when they are done with them. The shop will not be responsible for broken or missing tools that were left behind. There will be no phone. There will be no need for a manager. There will be some sort of E-schedule on dsmcentral, that only paying members will have access to. All dsmcentral members will be welcome to hang out when a paying member is there to unlock the place and supervise, but they will not be able to use the facilities to work on their car. This is an exclusive privilege for paying members, giving those who want it access to a lift and a roof over the head for working on cars. Like Spy said, we all have jobs already. We're not looking for extra profit. To be honest, I don't have time for a 2nd job. Some of us just want access to a lift, others of us just want space for working on our cars. Its also nice just to have a common place for dsmcentral to hang out.

[The Iron Goat]

I welcome the idea, and I think there would be sufficient availability to create an active page on this board where you could simply click and reserve a spot on the calendar. I won't be in much need of the shop, at least not for a while, but It's still a great idea.

This could possibly even be a staging point for a group project?

[xian 1g]

Nate,


Dans response, assures me where we sit. no need to go to pm's.


I do think, that you and all of the peoria crew aren't reading my points with the right intent. I think there is need for a manager. This is a second job. Your wife will get pissed.

I understand, for the second time I've had to state and support it, the point of the such said shop. I just don't think that the core members understand the time investment they are getting into and think you are better off opening a "natedogg dsm shop".....

I leave it at that.. I understand your points and feel as though you are mis-reading mine... I don't think this is any way a harmfull operation to what I am a jr. partner too.

I know that as a jr. partner to a real shop, I invest a ton of time to pm's emails, phone calls, for no show's etc... and I think you are better off setting this up in a 'natedogg shop" than a np org...

I have had my say, shoot me if you want for offering helpfull information... that's your choice. It's a lot more complicated than you think.. imho....


either case I wish you the best. And hope my concerns are non-relevant, But if... in a year from now, when things drastically changed... I think you should have listened more to me, instead of sluffing me off and assuming I'm coming against you, instead of trying to help you make dsmcentral a better place....

[kapoosh]

I know that as a jr. partner to a real shop, I invest a ton of time to pm's emails, phone calls, for no show's etc... and I think you are better off setting this up in a 'natedogg shop" than a np org...

No show's shouldnt matter....

It seems you keep thinking that this going to be a real shop. If someone signs up and doesnt show, it's there own loss. It's not going to really effect anyone per say.

[natedogg]

I honestly think you are the one taking this the wrong way Xian. I don't know where you get the idea that I am "sluffing you off" or "shooting you for helpful information". I appreciate your input. I just truly think that you don't really understand where we are coming from here. Its not a shop per se. No profit, no responsibilities beyond your own tools, and keeping the place halfway in order.

This is in no way meant as an insult, but just out of curiosity, why would you understand the time investment for such a shop any better than the rest of us, considering you have never tried setting up a nfp place to work on your car any more than the rest of us? You seem very convinced that you are right and the rest of us are wrong, but it may be you that is surprised a year from now.

On the other hand it may go as you say, but how can we know for sure unless we try. I can think up scenarios for my DSM all day. What if I did this, what if I did that? In the end I don't really know how it turns out until I give it a try. And if I don't try it, I'll always aks myself...what if? If it does go as you say, you can tell us all, "I toldja so!"