E85 Options

[badbu68]

I know some of you were interested in this considering the detonation resistance of 105 octane. You should be awaire though that the like gasoline, different winter blends cause different properties, apparently w/ e85 it's a 70% ethanol 30% gasoline blend. Anyway, check this out for tuning properties, I know it's a subie site but just try and overlook that;

http://www.cobbtuning.com/tech/instruction...ubarusv1.08.xls

[turbohcar]

Technically it's supposed to be 85% ethanol (hence the E85) and 15% gasoline. I'm not sure what the mixture really ends up being straight out of the pump though. I do know that after watching a show about hypothetically converting vehicles, it didn't look that hard. Basically, you need some coated gas lines, different piston rings, and a fuel map that's been richened up quite a bit (allow for tuning). The ethanol is corrosive to the regular gasoline engine parts, thus the reason for the coatings.

[Kazz5]

Yes, and what's not being advertised/mentioned about e85 is that it makes an engine less fuel efficient.

For instance, a tankful of "normal" gas may get 450 miles. A similar tankful of e85 will get 350 miles. Of course, if they were using diesel in a comparable engine/vehicle, a tankful would get 550 ... heh.

[turbohcar]

^^That too.

[scorp28]

Yes you are getting less MPG but with the price being so much lower you spend less dollar's per mile which is where the savings come in to play.

[haunter]

Yes you are getting less MPG but with the price being so much lower you spend less dollar's per mile which is where the savings come in to play.

I dunno where you buy gas, but E85 around here, if you can find it, costs maybe 40 cents less per gallon than 87 octane

[The Iron Goat]

Everyone I've talked to that runs E85 says its a wash in cost because of the inefficiency vs. price. It doesn't sound like a great option for regular driving right now, but I bet that improvements are made in both engines and fuel to make it better. Just my .02

[scorp28]

Yes you are getting less MPG but with the price being so much lower you spend less dollar's per mile which is where the savings come in to play.

I dunno where you buy gas, but E85 around here, if you can find it, costs maybe 40 cents less per gallon than 87 octane

Based on research and studies that I have read you can expect to see a drop in fuel economy of ~10% when using E-85 in a turbocharged car.

As an example lets say you have a 10 gallon fuel tank and you get 30MPG on regular unleaded. Lets also say that gas is $3.00 per gallon. In this scenario you would be able to go 300 miles on $30.00.

Now with E-85 in that same vehicle you would only get 27MPG (at a 10% loss in economy) so you would only be able to go 270 miles, but if you paid $.40 less per gallon for the E-85 you would have only spent $26.00.

Since you would have $4.00 left out of the $30.00 that you started with you could buy 1.538 more gallons of E-85 and at 27MPG drive another 41.5 miles bringing you total mileage up to 311.5 miles for the same 30 dollars.

Again this is based on studies that I have read as I have not tried it out myself.

[The Iron Goat]

The people I've talked to have all been NA, if that makes a difference.

[Kazz5]

Well, the real net here is that you'll use more, but it costs less, moreover, you'll get more power ...

On a related note, as of yesterday, unleaded regular on B/N was running 2.679. The radio claims lower by this weekend and 2.30 by the time the snow flies ...

[awd4kicks]

If you can truely get more power out of it without much trouble that's a good thing.

And I'm not bashing anyone, but 300 miles on $30 bucks and 311 miles on $30 bucks in reality is a wash for me. I think the example is good and concise, but may even be a bit optimistic on the 10%, so the savings could be less.

More power is more power though.

[AWD DSM 1]

Part of the draw to the E85 is that it's produced from stuff grown in some of our backyards.... completely renewable and very pleantiful, helps jobs in our area, keeps the money local instead of going to the middle east or other places.

[The Iron Goat]

Don't get any of my comments wrong, I think E85 is a fantastic step in the right direction, and if we can reap the high-octane benefits more power (literally) to us!

I think that a lot of people have this idea that it's some super-efficient cheap gas that's leaps and bounds better than traditional. It's good, more evironmentally sound and all the benefits that Rob mentioned above, but not the like to biodiesel. I'm interesting in setting up to use it, also.

[badbu68]

Here's just some more info on e85. Yes, it burns w/ less btus than gas but do you realize that the summer blend is 105 octane? That means less detonation, wich turbo guys should understand means more boost means more power w/ correct afr. You don't need new piston rings. You do realize as well that our gas is gas-ahol now due to the 10% addition of ethonal.

Anyway, that's all for now.

[turbohcar]

http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

and info for the conversion here:
http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php

[Kazz5]

Here's just some more info on e85. Yes, it burns w/ less btus than gas but do you realize that the summer blend is 105 octane? That means less detonation, wich turbo guys should understand means more boost means more power w/ correct afr. You don't need new piston rings. You do realize as well that our gas is gas-ahol now due to the 10% addition of ethonal.

Anyway, that's all for now.

Yep, that's the point. Cheaper, less fuel efficient, but makes more power.

[haunter]

Part of the draw to the E85 is that it's produced from stuff grown in some of our backyards....  completely renewable and very pleantiful, helps jobs in our area, keeps the money local instead of going to the middle east or other places.

of course, we make ethanol in the least efficient way possible

sugar cane is where its at! using cane would make it ALOT cheaper and more worhtwhile


from what I understand in NA cars you see a 30% drop in gasmileage, when you only save just over 10% on price, whats teh point?


I found the easiest way to get by with less gas is to buy a sportbike


also, you spray more of it in there, which help keeps temps down in the CC I beleive


wort and I talke about swapping my 200sx turbo to e85 since half the car was rotted out and needed replacement ANYWAYS


but instead of I sold it

[SCCA Stang]

If you can truely get more power out of it without much trouble that's a good thing.

And I'm not bashing anyone, but 300 miles on $30 bucks and 311 miles on $30 bucks in reality is a wash for me. I think the example is good and concise, but may even be a bit optimistic on the 10%, so the savings could be less.

More power is more power though.

I am not sure if you really are getting that much more from it overall if you look at the British Thermal Units (BTU) produced from it.

CLICK HERE is a site I found that talks about it.

and we just talked about this in school too and our books show these values for different fuels

2D diesel 141,800 BTU/gal
1D diesel 137,000 BTU/gal
Gasoline 110,000 BTU/gal
Butane 103,000 BTU/gal
Propane 92,500 BTU/gal
Ethanol 80,000 BTU/gal
CNG/LPG 75,000 BTU/gal
Methanol 55,000 BTU/gal

and the definition of a BTU is how much heat energy the fuel will produce when burned

so with that in mind I am thinking that Gasoline producing more BTU's accually produces more power per unit.

the only way that we are getting more power from Ethanol is from the lower volitility (a fuels ability to vaporize) which happens to reduce the likelyhood of preignition and detonation, thus we are able to run more compression, more boost and more advanced timing.

if we can simply control detonation and preignition while running gasoline we can do more with gasoline than ethanol

[badbu68]

Der, more compression. That's why most na cars wich are typically around 8.75-9:1 compression can't make the full use of e85.

The higher the octane rating, the slower a fuel burns. For a car that runs 9:1 compression, you only need 87 octane due to the lower cylinder pressure. Now if you'd build a 12:1 na motor running e85, you can fully use the 105 octane rating. That's why you run 93+ in a turbo car, to control detonation. WTF does mpg matter when you're able to take full advantage of basically racing fuel type octane.

[badbu68]

if we can simply control detonation and preignition while running gasoline we can do more with gasoline than ethanol

Yeah, that's if you're buying $4/gallon 100 racing gas. E85 is cheap octane.

I don't know how many times I have to say it, OCTANE CONTROLS DETONATION.

The higher the octane, the less detonation.

Yes, it burns w/ less BTUs per unit, that is why you fatten up the fuel curve to run closer to 10:1 afr w/ e85.