Project Black Golfball-plans for 2010 Options

[mitsu90]

Nice times.. You finally giving up on the 14b

[black92_tsi_awd]

Quite possibly...

I've been beating this 14B turbo to death. The only thing I can do is have the car lose more weight which I'm not sure I how to do yet. I tried getting the lighterweight 3 pt manual lap belt but apparently their pretty rare. I could replace the seats with racing buckets, but the long drive to Cordova might kill this old man. The guys running faster on the 14B have gutted cars, lexan windows, fiberglass hood etc. Not good for taking my kids for a ride.

I need to do a new exhaust, the Cat back Buschur system is about done. I'm going to go with a side dump with maybe a Moroso spiral flow muffler. That should shave a few pounds.

[dualdj1]

yeah major weight reduction is not worth doing on something you still want to drive on the street. best off going with engine upgrades, even though you have more risk of engine failure that way...

[mitsu90]

What turbo you looking at using?

[black92_tsi_awd]

Probably a 16g, easiest trip to the 11's. But if I can get a deal on a 18 or 20g I might go for it.

I'm looking for a rebuildable core turbo.

[mitsu90]

I'll keep a look out for one

[black92_tsi_awd]

Anybody know anyone that has run the Dsmap tuning software?

[mitsu90]

93dsmowner is running speed density. He seems to know what he is doing too.

[93dsmowner]

Anybody know anyone that has run the Dsmap tuning software?

Yes I am indeed. My setup is very similar to yours, I'd imagine. Big 16g, Punishment FMIC, 3" TBE. On a blown 16g and those mods I ran a 13.6 on a stock MAF on 10psi creeping to 15 by redline in 3rd.

I should be hot on your heels at 20psi on pump gas on SD. The difference in throttle response is amazing. I'd be happy to let you check out the software and drive the car to see if you notice a difference.

Oh and if you haven't yet and you are really interested, go sign up at www.ds-map.net before anything else. Good group of guys, especially in the Pidgin chat room. Bunch of "outside of the box" guys over there. Freescale MAP Sensors for $25, USB logger cable for $25 (not sure when he can begin making them again as he was moving/house stuff)

You could end up with the sensors and I have some junkyard pigtail pulls in the garage, all for under $50. Then you would want an Ostrich (or I can wrap up my tune and leave it alone and let you borrow mine).

Wideband is able to be logged in the Jackal logger (DS-MAP is actually Jackal. DS-MAP is way beta pre Jackal.) You take a wideband analog output wire out of a wideband controller (I have the Innovate LC1) and run it to where the factory narrow band goes.) Technically we don't use closed loop. However, if you can have 2.5V be equal to your stoich value (whether you want to tune to 14.7 or 15.5 or whatever is up to you. You would have to program the WBO2 for this, however. 2.5V is 14.7 on the LC1 out of the box.

93dsmowner is running speed density. He seems to know what he is doing too.

Heh I'm MAF retarded so I think him and I could exchange some valuable info.

[black92_tsi_awd]

I joined up on there this week. Need to get my five posts in to download the software. Spent a couple of night on there reading, seems pretty interesting.

You still running the 16g? I thought you put a HX40 or something on it.

[93dsmowner]

I joined up on there this week. Need to get my five posts in to download the software. Spent a couple of night on there reading, seems pretty interesting.

You still running the 16g? I thought you put a HX40 or something on it.

Yep still on the 16g. I have an HX35 in the garage that I eventually want to build a divided manifold for so I can run the stock housing. I won't be doing that until I build a motor for it.

It's insanely simple. I've never played with Link but I have used TunerPro RT to do stuff (antilag, stutter box, nlts, lean burn) but Jackal is a million times easier.

Car pulls HARD and I'm only at 17psi and 19 deg peak timing on 93 Pump. Putting in some BPR7ES plugs tomorrow to give 20+ psi a shot.

[dualdj1]

hey I'm lookin for something good to help patterson tune his. Free is definitely better. Been lookin at the DSMlink stuff, but open to other options.


Now are you using a combination of SD and MAF? or is it straight up SD using like a GM 4bar or something? My understanding is if you know MAF tuning (which i somewhat know), then MAF is better than SD because it's more accurate. BUT the best setup is a blowthrough setup, and you have to have a GOOD MAF to handle that.

[93dsmowner]

hey I'm lookin for something good to help patterson tune his. Free is definitely better. Been lookin at the DSMlink stuff, but open to other options.


Now are you using a combination of SD and MAF? or is it straight up SD using like a GM 4bar or something? My understanding is if you know MAF tuning (which i somewhat know), then MAF is better than SD because it's more accurate. BUT the best setup is a blowthrough setup, and you have to have a GOOD MAF to handle that.

Blowthrus are meh in my opinion. You have to use the stock maf to calibrate it and changed in the diameter of piping around the maf affect the readings and blahh.... 1 vac line to the MAP. 1 IAT sensor in the intercooler piping. A little cutting and splicing. DONE.

Again, more than happy to show you the setup and let you see how my junk runs.

[dualdj1]

Please don't take this wrong, I am generally in support of MAF, but am open to SD where the circumstances better fit an SD setup.

That being said, any *good* MAF manufacturer will be able to give you the MAF curve to plug in to your tuning software. Then yes you have to datalog and tune your MAF curve for your specific setup, but if you do so you'll have much more accurate AFR through the entire RPM range. Vacuum estimates airflow, a MAF will always tell you nearly exactly how much air is going in, if you have it calibrated properly.

In the mustang world, damn near EVERYONE ditches SD to run MAF if possible. It does take more tuning and datalogging to get it dialed in, but general consensus is that it's more accurate, so worthwhile. I do understand that MAP/SD is a lot easier to setup and configure though.


I guess I just don't see why you'd have to use the stock MAF to calibrate it, if you have both a good MAF and good tuning software, not dealing with any of that MAF translator bullshit.

If you'd like, i can get some screenshots of the tuning software I used on my Mustang to show you what I mean. The author also built an analyzer program, so you basically plug in your datalog, and it gives you the updated MAF curve to plug back into your tune. Rinse and Repeat. I believe I could make my analyzer program work with any datalog from any logging software, so long as it has the required parameters.

[93dsmowner]

Please don't take this wrong, I am generally in support of MAF, but am open to SD where the circumstances better fit an SD setup.

That being said, any *good* MAF manufacturer will be able to give you the MAF curve to plug in to your tuning software. Then yes you have to datalog and tune your MAF curve for your specific setup, but if you do so you'll have much more accurate AFR through the entire RPM range. Vacuum estimates airflow, a MAF will always tell you nearly exactly how much air is going in, if you have it calibrated properly.

In the mustang world, damn near EVERYONE ditches SD to run MAF if possible. It does take more tuning and datalogging to get it dialed in, but general consensus is that it's more accurate, so worthwhile. I do understand that MAP/SD is a lot easier to setup and configure though.


I guess I just don't see why you'd have to use the stock MAF to calibrate it, if you have both a good MAF and good tuning software, not dealing with any of that MAF translator bullshit.

If you'd like, i can get some screenshots of the tuning software I used on my Mustang to show you what I mean. The author also built an analyzer program, so you basically plug in your datalog, and it gives you the updated MAF curve to plug back into your tune. Rinse and Repeat. I believe I could make my analyzer program work with any datalog from any logging software, so long as it has the required parameters.

The way I see it, MAF is best on NA cars but SD is a better way to go about things on a turbo car. If you have a 3" GM MAF and 2.5" intercooler piping, your calibration will be different that someone with full 3" since it would change the velocity of the air going through the MAF.

Both are great ways to go about things. Idle quality and throttle response on SD can't be beaten. But again, opinions are like assholes, and everyone's but yours stinks!

[black92_tsi_awd]

I don't understand the "you'd have to use the stock MAF to calibrate it". I never calibrated my MAFT and have never heard that before. Is the calibration something that DSMlink or DSMAP requires?

[93dsmowner]

I don't understand the "you'd have to use the stock MAF to calibrate it". I never calibrated my MAFT and have never heard that before. Is the calibration something that DSMlink or DSMAP requires?

I don't know much regarding MAF tuning outside of Link. I don't like Link because I think a lot of the stuff they do is band-aid fixes. Like MAF Clamping and things like that.

I'm in it for SD because I want MAP based fuel and timing. Timing is still currently load based and they will be unveiling MAP-Based timing and fueling in Werewolf which won't be freeware.

However, there are people running 10's on Jackal. Hell, the one and only twincharged DSM that I know of is running Jackal.

[dualdj1]

"The way I see it, MAF is best on NA cars but SD is a better way to go about things on a turbo car. If you have a 3" GM MAF and 2.5" intercooler piping, your calibration will be different that someone with full 3" since it would change the velocity of the air going through the MAF."

-- That is correct, but not really an obstacle, nor is air density, as the nature of a MAF corrects for these factors.

The main thing that matters with MAF tuning is not having any bends before/after so you get a "straight" air stream through the meter. That matters more though in a pull through (NA or FI) setup than a blow through (FI), as with blow through you're under pressure. It's just important to get an even stream of air through the maf, or have the MAF clocked properly to handle an unbalanced stream.

In a turbo setup, if you want to use a MAF, you definitely need to run Blow-Through and not Pull-Through, and your meter has to support that setup.

The MAF does require tuning though. In the software I use, you have 30 points in a table, and it's a voltage output to CFM relation, so at say .1v you have 800cfm, whereas at 5v (max) you have 2400CFM. You can tune all the points in between on that curve to give you the desired AFR across all the flow range.

The downside is that if you have a large plenum, there is some delay from the engine starting to pull more air, to the MAF reading it. I'd think with the map you would have a slightly quicker reaction. HOWEVER, that's where things like throttle tip in, etc, come into play in calculating your Commanded AFR, so you read your TPS and say ok you're pushing the foot down, add more fuel since the MAF reading will be slightly delayed. Then you don't have the throttle lag like you're talking about with the MAF systems you've used. And you have an actual measured reading on your airflow, instead of a calculated one.

I'm just not sure how much of that is possible in the DSM stuff. I would guess most if not all, as the ecu i'm using is an 89 mustang, and can do that.

So again from what I've found, it's more work to setup a MAF, but you'll keep more accurate AFR as you always know how much air is going into your engine, wheras with MAP it can only estimate. But in the case of turbos, maybe estimating is good enough if you're not trying to max out every last bit?


Honestly from everything I've read, both can be tuned almost equally, it just sounds like most are saying use whatever you're more comfortable with, there are slight advantages either way, and both require a decent amount of tuning knowledge to get setup correctly and get best performance from.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Headed out for the FBody Track rental day today.

Great day for racing. Some pretty high carnage rate though. Buddies Nova fragged the rear end, another Nova broke it's trans. Saw a G8 break something in the rear end and the owner had to go get a Uhaul nox truck and trailer to get it home. Saw a few other pushed back from the starting line.

Saw a killer homebuilt 40's Volvo Panel truck with LS power. Ran mid 11's on it's first outing to the track. Guy built everything himself including the frame.

My Runs:
12.49 @ 110.5
12.68 @ 110.5 Spun tires bad
12.37 @ 110.3
12.34 @ 111.6
12.36 @ 111.2
12.27 @ 111.1 New best!
12.39 @ 110.8
12.34 @ 110.7

Most 60's were in the 1.7x
Turbo was spiking to 24 psi and falling off. Had to richen the MAFT Translator as far as it would go and still had a little knock with 112 in the tank. DC were around 92%.

Saw the Frankendart in person, nice car.

Also saw the Frankenstang. Mustang with a 4G63 runnin mid 9's.

I'm really happy with the consitency on the low side of the 12's.

[awd4kicks]

Simply AMAZING Chris! You just keep getting better with that 14b...

HUGE Props to you for sticking it out man!