Brainstorming for better racing fun Options

[awd4kicks]

Ok everybody knows of the age old run what ya brung drag racing for street credit and a bad a$$ reputation for your car. That has always produced 3 things.
1) A local 'Top Dog' (Most money invested)
2) A small number of people spending money gunning for the top seat
3) A bunch of ex-enthusiasts that used to enjoy their cars at original performance levels only to be burned out by not being competative with the extremists and well-to-do.

So I've been wondering for a while now... Is this strictly a personal decision where you have to set-up a budget for your car and live with the performance you can afford. Or do any of you think there is something we can set-up localy to make multi-levels of racing performance for the most fun possible out of our individual cars?

At the same time I have the taste of Too-much-structure-nausea when I talk about multi-levels and graduations in a group of performance cars. Maybe this is is not the right direction, but I know the dilema still stands.

For the longest time this has all just been part of the 'Thrill of Victory and the Agony of Defeat!' moto. I think we can retain more enthusiasts and have more collective fun if we can make varying levels of performance or dollars spent, viable goals to strive for together.

On a side note I HATE bracket racing. And this only pertains to drag racing, But maybe more scheduled events with catagorys grouped by dollars spent or HP levels could be run heads up. We already have other forms of racing that anyone can choose, it just seems that drag racing makes for good bench mark on any cars ability to accelerate. I'm sure I am a bit bias though.

To wrap this up I'll throw part of a well known story out there... There is a Talon I know of that was incredibly fun and touted as fast even in it's premature stock form. In reality this car was never close to being as fast as any 'Top Dogs', but the owner didn't have first hand experience with these things and didn't mind. So fun was where ever the Talon got driven. Eventually the Talon was built to be pretty quick and was even more of a blast to drive! The performance took it's toll on the drive train and the owners wallet, bringing the car to it's Knees for what could have been a short time. In the down time a stock motor and turbo could easily have been afforded and run, but the distaste for not being competative and the money to do otherwise kept the Talon from running all together. Now almost 3 years later a big engine and turbo combination MAY be coming together for some crazy fast fun. But how much fun was lost in the mean time by waiting to afford the big parts?

Throw out some ideas...I'd like to see what you guys think we could do together.

Marcus

[AWD DSM 1]

I love the idea Marcus, but I think in all reality in the end it's always going to be about the fastest (aka who spent the most time/money on their car). Maybe that's the reason I drive a cavalier now....

[natedogg]

Interesting. How does one quantify fun? You're more engineer than you than you think, Kicks! Ouch!

[natedogg]

In all honesty I could go for another project rally beater. One that's in slightly better condition than the last one...

[99Spyder]

What kind of event would take advantage of this grouping technique? Would this be an authorized venue of some kind or maybe something a little less approved under the cover of darkness?

Going the money invested route sounds good but might end with some debate. Retail value of the parts may have to be considered to offset those who have found deals on used parts or those who have "connections". On the other hand grouping by HP is cool if everyone knows what their HP is...

[akamiami]

maybe I'm reading into this correctly, maybe not, but for me, it has mostly been about wrenching on the car and the learning process.

I started working on my dsm to make it faster, yes, but I was younger and not financially gifted, so I found myself spending what little I could afford and my car progressed slowly as did my mechanical ability. However, a few hundred dollars (or thousand ) here and there spent consistently over several years eventually makes for a quick dsm. What I've found now, is that it's not about being the fastest at all or even in the 'fast group'. It's all about getting deeper and deeper into the car and understanding more. I wouldn't buy a tuning device because the car wasn't fast enough, I'd buy it because I wanted to tune the hell out of the car and really understand what was going on in the brain of the automobile. And throughout the course of rewiring the vehicle (twice) I've learned a lot already about the electrical system; a whole lot.

What I'm saying is that you may start out in one direction but end up in a whole different one. I see so many guys that just want the fastest car or the best looking and be damned if they actually understand what's under the hood, they just want the end result. For some of us though, it's about the process of building the car.

What I've seen up here in the suburbs is that no matter what you've got, you'll never be the fastest. At some point you've got to stop comparing your car to the rest and just enjoy it for what it is. There's always going to be some guy with more money, more invested time, or more driving experience (that's the part where I get really envious) that may trump your cars performance. I say, just find a way to let your work reward you as it should and enjoy the ride.

[awd4kicks]

I'm mearly looking for ideas. Any venue or form that an enthusiast can feel good in working on their car at any level. I shouldn't have burdened the brainstorm with the drag racing example it doesn't have to be that at all. Maybe a comunity project car as Nate mentioned, or prizes awarded to those that do good in the auto cross events...I don't know yet.

BTW Kris those are very good points and maybe there is nothing that can be done as a group, but to just get gratification from your vehicle your own way. I am personally mixed...I love to drive as much as I like to build-up my vehicle. At the same time it seems too much light has been spread on the Drag racing scene and who can beat who, causing a distraction from some things that used to or still can be appreciated.

But then what is a DSM best at? Excellent acceleration upgrades with cheap mods! That's best seen in...well drag racing.

[akamiami]

I'd disagree. I think the dsm is the best of the sport compacts out there because it excels at what sport compacts do best, excel at being well-rounded cars that are suitable for a variety of purposes. A dsm can be a formidable drag car, daily driver, great track slut, and autocross contender at the same time. About the only thing it isn't is a PGM, and for that you really need a high dollar car like a m3/5, corvette, or porsche.

Not to come down on the drag racing scene, but it's a little silly that the way to get the most 'street cred' seems to be engaging in the most dangerous activity. While I'm not going to sign up for RASR anytime soon, I still recognize how foolish it is to jeapordize so much hard work and personal sacrifice for a few seconds of fleeting glory found on the pavement.

[awd4kicks]

I don't think we disagree. I feel your statement is just a more in-depth view. In my mind a DSM can be considered a formidable competitor because it does acceleration so well. Then AWD affords it to do almost anything at least moderately well. It is an excellent crosstrainer, but costs a ton of money to make perfect at anything. Any DSM owner could pick apart a DSM's handling, It's looks, It's braking, or any of it's other weak points... but it's acceleration and taking to mods like it was designed for them, overshadows these points. Weak points come with any econimcally priced platform, few have what it takes to make these issues seem invisible like a DSM.

But I digress...
Theres no reason to rehash the DSM make-up again. The ideas I'm looking for could help any car enthusiast, but we care about DSM owners in the here and now.

[Kazz5]

WARNING: RAMBLE FOLLOWS

Don't ask me where I'm going with these thoughts and no, you don't need to follow.

Drag racing to me is two things. One, it's a stoplight race in a legal format. Two, it's a measure of what mods have taken place with one's vehicle and perhaps even the driver. The difference with choice #1 is that you go for it the whole way. Whereas, at a stoplight you may let off for a variety of reasons including getting completely smoked or traffic/cop/whatever.

Autocross is a technical driving experience and eventually becomes more about the driver - unless you're in a more "open" class like SMod. Then it becomes quite a bit about the vehicle to a point. From there someone with a great potential car can be undressed by a damn good driver in a lightly modded fill-in-the-blank.

Dollars is a lousy measure as explained in prior posts. However, if someone's gonna drop 30-40 large and someone's wrenching on a $1500 sweatmobile someone's gotta notice when their performance is similar.

I'm not one with alot of automotive knowledge, really, due to time and money over the years. Historically it's been buy the car with the loan cuz you're gonna do damn little to it after purchase due to finances. Then there's house, family, blah-blah-blah. I'm at a point where I can do some of the old buy the performance in the loan and do some aftermarket. Ideal perhaps, but lost on someone like me if I don't have help: knowledgeable input, even mentoring.

In all honesty I think it's about getting together, talking cars, talking smack - or debunking it. Taking time, money and effort to wrench, etc. and then meet again once more. The bonuses are wrenching, etc. with new, knowledgeable people with similar passions and complementary knowledge.

Is it about getting together? The problem with that is the ability to put two (or more) vehicles side-by-side and really finding out how they compare - whether it's drag, autocross, or road course.

I'm frustrated by a couple of things these days. One is parts/vendors and making good "investment" decisions for mods and perhaps alot of that is my own lack of knowledge (ignorance) and naivete that someone presenting a part/service will really do a good job. The nice thing is that, unless it was a huge investment, I can likely (given time and money) overcome the errors and learn something along the way. However, the second frustration, perhaps, is what really fits in here.

That second frustration is being strapped inside so much potential performance and fun and being relegated to local law enforcement and driving around amongst the ignorant, commuting-only, cars-are-transportation-only populace. I literally itch sitting behind the wheel wanting to exploit what I've worked so hard (in whatever ways) to build! I can't rip through the gears the way I want. I can't REALLY work on heel-toe (god have mercy on autocross/road course participants whenever I get that working). I can't set up all 4 tires in a squealing drift. Society has my ass whipped.

So what's the net of all of this? Hell, I didn't have one in mind when I started. But maybe I can sum this up with get together to talk and drive cars.

Slo Pny and other days are great for this. Autocross events that might be more personalized or sponsored by like-minded/like-equipped folks might help. Along with road course trips. Yeah, sounds huge. Sounds impossible. And maybe I'm off-track.

Nate mentioned a project rally-beater. Sounds like a bunch of guys with knowledge or thirst thereof along with some parts, etc. put together a Frankenstein's beast. They learn, have fun, and generally get some comeraderie and good times out of it.

The biggest issues here are egos, dollars, time, personalities, and venues.

Does any of all of this make damned sense? *Laugh*

Thanks for the opportunity to ramble. Please delete if there's alot of backlash about it ... *Laugh*

[xian 1g]

I am curious Marcus where this came from? Was there a comlaint during a local drink and talk session? Or just a thought that came to mind?

While I have no problems with be placed in a bracket, 'spent shit tons of money', 'ass dyno and bench races xxx hp', 'talks bunch of shit', and is currently 'broke'.

I also remember my cherry being popped in the beginnings of this quest for me. I had a stock car and wanted to go faster. Gutted a beautifull car, did free mods... had 5 seconds of that glorious put in the back of your seat feeling.

Which to me, it is all about that feeling, and the learning process. It's all about those 5 am mornings figuring out how to advance in my mechanical abilities. and then, those 10 pm ass dyno tests. as well as meeting up and talking the shit with the car guys.

I can lose, and still be happy. I guess to a certain extent it's like any other drug, adrenaline. You get accustomed to the 'pressed back' sensation you currently have... and although enjoying it, you need to do something to go faster so you can get that 'wow' feeling again.

Although, if you really wanted to do brackets, I do think there should be a consideration of 'shit talking bracketing'.

[haunter]

brackets could be interesting


anything with price though begs the question of 'total invested' or '$$ in mods'

either of those I may be able to be a contender this year in the low dollar number


anything else I will be mostly slow I am sure

[natedogg]

Without getting too philosophical, I like going fast, whether it be in a straight line or around the twisties. DSM's and Evo's alike can be made to do both of these very well. I also like the satisfaction I get out of making a car quick by my own hands through wrenching and tuning. Making a car more than the sum of its parts is the reason we all enjoy DSM's so much.

A couple of years ago, Kicks and I went in on a rally DSM together. It was piece, required a lot of work, and only lasted one rally-cross event, but damn it was fun. I'd be all over that if we could find a better starting point than the car Kicks and I originally had.

[black92_tsi_awd]

I think brackets have some benefits. If you have a slower car, you can be the fastest car in that bracket and get a sence of accomplishment quicker. It can be sort of depressing to have a 14 sec car and be so far away from being a 12 sec car.

Of course you still have that drive to reach the 13 sec milestone once you run a 14.1! Speed is additive.

For me, like others have said, my main motivation is to learn as I go and try to find out what will make the car go faster with what I have available. I spent a lot of money on my truck (what I had available at the time) to drop 1.5 sec on my timeslip-best was a 15.2. But I learned alot about engines, trans and gearing so the money was worth it. For about the same money modifying the truck, I bought my Talon, slightly modified it and it should be a 13.9 car, once I learn to launch it. But alot of what I learned on the truck has transfered to the Talon.

[Kazz5]

I believe it is time for a pow wow for the local members, bring ideas to the table.

I.E. spy misses Hooters ...

[Kazz5]

Well, madflava's bachelor party starts at 8 out at Kappa. Should DSMCentral crash it? *Laugh*

[The Iron Goat]

This is very interesting. Very interesting indeed. I'll be very curious to hear the results of said pow-wows. I'd also be up for any sort of group project once I get home. Post on, gentlemen.

[scorp28]

I for one am starving for a get together. It has been a long time since I have been to one.

My input on the topic at hand is this......

I think braket racing is ok for what it is. If the people are honest when they dial in there car it all but takes the car out of the equation and makes it all about the driver and his abilities, more or less. I too prefer heads up racing as a way to judge what your car is capable of. That to can be a test of the drivers abilities, I personally have won a few races where I should have gotten spanked, but due to the other drivers lack of driving skill the results turned out in my favor. I'm sure most of you have similar stories also.

As far as some of the ideas that have been thrown out there I think dividing cars based on there HP or approx. HP is a pretty good idea, especially for those that get fed up with not having the money to compete. They can then still have some more realistic goals to shoot for. I for one hate to lose at anything that I participate in. I am a very competitive person but when it comes to racing I have learned to take losing very gracefully. The first time I ever lost a race in anything that I ever raced in was to Spy when I went up against Shamu after beating a GVR4 and a Tiburon. I knew i would lose that race so it didn't bother me that much. To this date Spy is the only person that I have ever lost to that I can remember. Not to say that my car is really fast because it has always been pretty much stock, I have just been lucky and haven't been challenged by any of the "big boys".

Basically what I was trying to say with that whole nonsensicle rambling is that if you are going to race people you have to choose the right races and be prepared to lose. If you lose then you have another goal to shoot for.

When it comes to my DSM yes I would love to be able to compete at street level with the likes of Kris and Nate and the other really fast cars out there but I know until I have better finances that I probably won't be able to and I am ok with that. I just want to make my car the best it can be for what I can afford. I enjoy working on it to a certain extent but I also know when I am in over my head so I let someone alot more knowledgeable hanle the work for me such as KOU doing my 6-bolt swap.

I will personally race anybody that wants to give it a go and I will be disapointed if I lose but that is all part of the experience. For now I only have 2 goals. 1...to beat SPY sometime and avenge my losses and 2....to build a car to take to the Salt Flats and break the 200 MPH mark. WOO HOO that would be great. And I want to do the latter by this time the year after next. Hey maybe that could be a community project . It is not a DSM but it is close. I have a 1988 LeBaron turbo that would would be great for a starting point plus not to mention the sleeper factor.


I hope you guys can interpret all that I was trying to say here because basically I lost track myself