Hey guys, I've been playing the the laser just trying to get a better understanding of what the ecu is doing at what point and why. Problem is she knocks and I can't get it to go away. Here's what's going on:

-Into the throttle anywhere from 1500-2700rpms results in 43counts of knock
-The O2 cycles as it should and my fuel trims are all 3 90-110
-Changing gears to raise the RPMs will make the problem go away
-A hard rev will make the problem go away for a minute or two
-At WOT I never see a knock count higher than 2

So what are your thoughts? I'm leaning toward fantom knock.

A thought...

If the engine was out of balance slightly, would it knock at lower rpm, but go away at higher? Maybe even slightly low compression in one cylinder. I've had my truck do somthing like that when the plug wires went bad. Shakes at low rpm, but smoothed out at higher.

i'm getting soething similer in galant, go throught the gears no knock, 5th gear pull 43 counts.

I just replaced my plugs and wires. I had one bad wire before. It does stumble and idle terrible. I added 5 degrees of timing at 750-1500 and that smoothed out the idle quite a bit. My VR4 was doing this and new injectors seems to have fixed it. Any thoughts on an injector getting stuck open?

Check your coil pack. I just had the Celica's coil replace for those exact symptoms. I've got one you can swap with for troubleshooting if you'd like.

I have one that you can have, If you come get it.

I like to pride myself on being the dsm knock expert. reason being:

I have a 92 talon that had knock issues, so I replaced my knock sensor, didnt help. Then I noticed a sticky lifter, changed to the 3G lifters, didnt help. I changed absolutely every sensor on the car, didnt help. Timing belt, didnt help. different ecu, didnt help. Motor mounts, didnt help. GM MAS and Translator so I could tune it, didnt help. 3" exhaust, didnt help. No exhaust, didnt help. 550s , new fuel pump, rewire, intake, supra sidemount, 16G, 2G manifold. . . didnt help.

Finally Id had enough. so I bought a new engine to swap out and when I took the old one out Id realized that a tooth on the old crank pulley had broken off and was rattling around under my timing belt and causing 43 counts of knock, which also, gave me about 5 degrees of timing which killed my power.

My advice would be start big. Not small. All of the things I mentioned are culprits of phantom knock. Change the things that are more prone to cause real knock. Also, anytime you have 43 counts of knock I can guarentee its phantom knock. The more knock the ecu sees the farther back timing goes. timing goes too far back and the engine will stall and die. I would do a full refresh. timing belt and components, replace the cam angle sensor, coolant temp sensor, throttle position sensor, knock sensor, O2 sensor, all vacuum lines, egr valve, check your injectors, clean the combustion chamber with seafoam or mccc, check the caps on your ecu and/or have them replaced and replace your motor mounts or fill them in with window weld. If that doesnt work, buy an eprom and get the knock eliminator chip and buy an egt probe and gauge and a wideband O2 setup. The knock eliminator code raises the threshold of when the ecu sees knock and lowers its sensitivity. The EGT is for safety measures. Youll always know if your running too lean or if your getting knock from detonation. The wideband is to tune it safely if you are getting knock from detonation.

^^^That's just a bit ridiculous. Having to nearly tear the engine apart, replacing things that have nothing to do with knock, and if that doesn't work, just force the computer to think there's nothing wrong. And to clarify, if you fill your motor mounts with window weld, you actually create more vibrations throught the engine assembly due to lack of trasmitted harmonics to the soft rubber mount.

I may not be able to give Nate a perfect answer on why his car is acting up, but I've been troubleshooting mechanical and electrical problems for years, and that's the worst method I've ever seen suggested.

sorry youre wrong, and you arent just arguing with me. Try doing some research. There is a site called VFAQ.COM if you go there it will tell you all that you need to know about 1G part throttle phantom knock and confirm everything I just said. There is a list there thats has people experiences over the last 8 years and the things they did to fix it. Go to the vfaq then click on the electrical section, click on the dsm knock sensor site, and then go to the part that says "talon digest" youll find everything you need there. Oh and feel free to ask me which part doesnt make sense to replace and ill tell you why it does.

Not true at all. Actual detonation will give you 43 counts of knock. And guess what a faulty coil will give you at lower RPMs? Detonation. Funny how all that works.

Don't act like an expert because you can quote vfaq. The steps listed can all cause knock to show up, but most aren't compliant with the rest of his symptoms. Trying to replace all those things will not only waste a lot of money, it also won't give you a true indicator of what was causing the knock.

And unless you want to donate the money and time, he should start small and easy. That's why many of the parts you suggested aren't where I would focus my attention, and that's why I think its a poor troubleshooting procedure. Anyone else care to chime in on this?

A stuck injector certainly could produce these symptoms. Too much fuel at low RPM causing misfire and all kinds of problems, and just the right amount at higher RPMs smoothing everything out. You could use a stethescope to listen and hear if the injectors are all clicking the same.

I would call nate the authority on this one... hopefully he chimes in. I agree that randomly replacing every part that could have an effect on something that may or may not be causing any sort of a problem is a huge waste, not only of money but also of time. Sometimes you've got to use the guess and check method when you're plain out of ideas, but I think it's much better to trouble shoot before hand.

Ask Nate and Kicks about 43 counts of knock... especially at WOT in 3rd gear...

At this point and even before I posted anything I was thinking it was either a spark or fuel issue. Neither of these issues would be causing detonation persay. A leaky injector and a bad spark would both cause the symptoms of rich knock. Currently that is the assumption I am working under. Thanks for the ideas guys. I'll be replacing my 2/3 coil next. If that is not the problem I'm leaning toward the injectors. I'm planning to replace all parts that would cause my symptoms one at a time so I can determine what the exact problem is.

well goat, I do know what im talking about and if youre going to insult me everywhere I post then just ignore me. Either way, yes obviously detonation will cause knock which is why im saying, if its a problem similar to what I had, dont just go rip you motor out and waste money like I did, replace things step by step starting with the stuff that really can cause actual knock. The Reason I say this is because REAL knock will kill your engine, understand? So take care of all of the things that will kill your engine rather that try to figure out if its phantom knock. Do you get what im saying now Goat?

*POST DELETED FOR LACK OF RELEVANCY AND PERSONAL ATTACKS, PLEASE KEEP THE DRAMA ON PMS OR ANOTHER SITE, GENTLEMEN!!*
spy

Update:

I added 3-5 degrees of timing between 750-3000 rpms. This seems to have knocked down the counts to 20 or so. I'll try adding more later. I know for a fact that the base timing is dead on. I'm very confused as to why this would make a difference. My O2s are still cycling like they should so my A/F is good. Taking out timing made the problem worse. Well, worst case, I have lots of timing. 35mpg here I come