Fuel Pump Install Help Options

[turbohcar]

Insert random curse words of your choosing here.......

Now, before you say "Vfaq this, PB Blaster that", there are a few things that you should know. I performed this install(removal actually) per the instructions listed on Vfaq.com. Everything was moving according to plan. I had PB Blastered the fuel line off and on all week and was hoping to do something this weekend. I finally got the 14mm line wrench for the fuel line and went to town tonight. First off, the fuel line came off EASY!!! I was surprised. There is rust on top of this fuel tank like you wouldn't believe. Rust that has rusted on top of rust. As I eagerly finish that up I start on the fuel pump assembly bolts (the six little ones) that hold it onto the fuel tank. Here's where the trouble begins. I broke the first one off. Clean off flush with the assembly. Here's where the curse words go. Not only did I break that one off, two others broke as well. The other three came off fine without trouble. So, now I have a problem. I can't put the pump assembly back in with the new pump until I figure out how I'm going to fix this.

I guess my query comes down to this:

Are those studs replaceable or do I need to buy a new fuel tank?

Black92TSiAWD, I know you've got a spare fuel tank, or used to, if you could please look and see if those studs are pressed in or if they are brazed in. I would much appreciate it.

If I do have to go the tank route it's not a big deal, just frustrating. Who would have thought that the hardest part of the whole ordeal would have been those six little bolts?

[Taxiwardance]

I did the same thing to my 92 last year. Broke/stripped 3 bolts removing that damn thing. But to get the pump out I had a friend stand behind me with a fire extinguisher while I got out the angle grinder and tried to kill myself by grinding all 3 to the plate on the pump assembly . When I was done I cleaned it like crazy and then jb welded it back into place, then poured rtv all over. If you ever need to remove it probably not a good idea though. I had to use a pry bar when I parted my car out and the assembly and tank were garbage when I was through! Got my walbro back in new condition though. Good thing I didn’t have my welder back then Although that was my “home Depot” car and my 94 will have everything done right so kind of depend on how you look at it. and my rant is pretty much useless because I really have no idea on if the bolts can be replaced or if you need a new tank.

Everything starts so simple but by the time your ready for 1 upgrade your car helps you along with 10 others.

[Hult250R]

2 or 3 of mine broke too when I did mine, I put a film of RTV on the gasket before I put the pump back in and its been fine ever since with a few missing studs, no leaks or anything.
I filled up the tank a couple days after and drove it around with the access panel off for a while to make sure it wasnt leaking.

[turbohcar]

Hmmm.....I'm half tempted to try the RTV route. Mainly I suppose for the time's sake and the fact that two of the ones that are still in tact are directly across from each other.

Anybody else have any objections/ideas?

[black92_tsi_awd]

I broke one or two of my bolts on the install too. I'd go look but the hatch is full of engine parts.

I just checked the extra tank in my shed (it still has all 6 studs)...the studs look like they're part of the ring welded to the top of the tank. Wouldn't be too easy to replace. I suppose you could drill through the ring and into the tank and JB weld the new studs in. Would have to clean it pretty well.

If you're lucky and the remaining 3 bolts are in a triangle pattern, it'll probably be OK with some RTV.

[Hult250R]

I was actually thinking about drilling the broken studs out of mine and pop-riveting the ones that broke.
It would pretty much be a permanent thing, (Unless you wanted to fish out the rivet parts when you drilled them out to get em off) But how often do you replace a fuel pump??

[BudmannG]

Drill them out and get a self tapping bolt. The ones in the blue talon did the same thing as yours. It leaked until I drilled it and put bolts in.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Bud...that's a damn good idea. Simple and effective.

[turbohcar]

I like that idea a little better Budmann. I'll try to come up with something similar. What size bolt did you use Bud?

[BudmannG]

Make sure the self tappers don't go into the tank. If you can catch the first lip only that would be best and keeps the shavings out of the tank. Under a inch is what I got.

[black92_tsi_awd]

So....what did you end up doing turbohcar??

[turbohcar]

I bought some bolts that may fit at Lowes yesterday. I haven't had time to try them out yet though. I also ordered a new fuel pump housing gasket for it as well so I dont' have to go the silicone route. I'll post my results here when I get it done.

[fastclipse82]

the black rtv doesnt get hard and brittle with being exposed to gasoline? Not saying not to use it, im just curious, cause I know alot of times, rubber gaskets will brittle away over time being exposed to gasoline. I would try gas tank weld or JB stick for longevity sake. Its made to not get brittle after being soaked with gasoline.

[Mitsu 77]

Drill them out and get a self tapping bolt. The ones in the blue talon did the same thing as yours. It leaked until I drilled it and put bolts in.

won't that put hot metal shavings into the tank?

[turbohcar]

If you're careful, the metal shavings can be kept at a minimum. Any that do get into the tank will be drained with the rest of the gasoline that's left in the tank when I drain it.

[Mitsu 77]

Just a thought,

maybe after the tank is drained a flush with lacker thinner will help get any stragalers left behind, an added plus is that the thinner is flammable so the engine will burn it as usual.

If it helps you can have the tank out of my gsx for 20....just to save you the hassel.

[BudmannG]

If you drill it slow and steady and a shot of 3 in 1 you can do it with out hot shavings. I also put a rag in the tank to keep out the shavings, that help out alot in clean up.

[turbohcar]

I was also thinking of doing something similar Budmann only using some newspaper and electrical tape instead (electrical tape because it's thinner width wise). That way everthing is covered except for the hole I'm drilling itself. I'll update later today. I plan on trying it here in an hour or so.

[turbohcar]

Fuel pump modifications are complete. I simply used three self-tapping, chemical treated (Mitsubishi OE) bolts. I drilled out the holes where the studs are supposed to go by reinserting the fuel pump housing back into the tank and using the top of the housing as a template. I'm also on my way this afternoon for a new rubber housing gasket to go with it. I used a dremel and a sand paper roll to take the remaining rust on the housing. Other than that, it's pretty straight forward. I test fit the bolts in the tank holes and made sure they fit. I am also going to shoot some silicone into the holes where the self-tappers go to make sure that it gets a good seal.

Overall, there was a bit of shavings that made it into the tank but not enough to make a big deal about. Nothing a good tank flush can't fix.

BTW, the kit that came with my Walbro makes installation a breeze. The pump sits straight up and down and uses the same bracket as the stocker. Some slight notching of the spacer was necessary but very easy. I also reused the pump filter retaining clip as it provided a much firmer fit than the one supplied. All I need to do now is to wire up the connections, flush the tank, and put it all back together. The fuel line from tank to filter is up next. I'll keep you all up to date with that too.

[black92_tsi_awd]

You running braided line up to the fuel filter?

[turbohcar]

-6 Stainless braided!

From www.slowboyracing.com
or you can piece together your own kit cheaper than that, I just didn't have the time to do all the runaround work.

[turbohcar]

Here's the latest and greatest problem with the Talon now. I put the new IC piping on and it looks fantastic. I put the new fuel pump in and soldered all connections, did the pump rewire and all appeared to be fine. I performed it exactly as the vfaq said. I turned the car to the ON position without the fuel line hooked up in order to do a test run. Nothing happened. So, I got out the lead tester and started checking connections. The power wire is getting power but the old fuel pump power wire (which is used as a signal wire on the relay) is not. I actually jumped the two wires just to make sure that the pump was working and it kicked on and spit some fuel out. So, now I'm left wondering why the stock fuel pump power wire is not getting any power. MPI fuses/relays all look good and I've checked the stuff I could get to right away. I didn't have a whole lot of time to go over it late last night but I would like some ideas on where to start looking first. Thanks!

BTW, everything ran when it was parked in the garage so it should all be operational.

[mitsu90]

on the galant, it did the same thing truned the key on and the pump did not prime, but the car runs just fine.

[turbohcar]

So the pump only runs when the car is running? That's strange, I thought all things that are on when the car is running should be on when the key is in the ON position.

[mitsu90]

thats what I thought. but mine dosn't purge when I turn the key on. if I use the logger to purge it without the motor running it turns on.

[Mitsu 77]

The pump won't run untill the ecu sees a crank pulse. Hook it all back up and crank the motor over and I bet the pump will start to run.

[turbohcar]

Wonderful. Thanks guys!

Things should be wrapped up for a test drive today.

EDIT: I guess I was thinking of a GM product that requires a couple key cycles for the fuel pressure to come up, therefore the pump had to be on when the key is on in order to build fuel pressure. Who knew GM and Mitsubishi were so different?

[turbohcar]

Well, lets just say things turned out to be not-so wonderful. I hooked everything up. Couplers, clamps, fuel line, so on and so forth. It appeared that the AFPR was preset to 40psi, as that was the reading on the gauge when I cranked the engine over. However, while cranking it did not start or sound like it was about to. I thought maybe it could be too much fuel, lowered the AFPR setting and tried again. No dice, and this time when I got out to check the gauge it was sitting at 0. To be honest, by this time of night I was fed up with messing with it and decided to go inside and get something to eat. I didn't even start diagnosis yet so I have no idea what it's doing, just decided to update. I'll have further details by tomorrow.

[turbohcar]

OK, I've gone a little further in depth into diagnosis and have come to one conclusion. The fuel injectors are not firing. I have spark, I have fuel pressure, but no fuel in the cylinders. It doesn't even look like the tops of the cylinders are moist. I can't even hear the injectors prime the cylinders when I turn the key on like the stock injectors do.

A little background:

NGK BPR7ES plugs
Accel Wires
780cc disk style injectors
FIC injector seals
Full Throttle AFPR w/ Autometer FP gauge
Eprom ECU chipped by Wort for the injectors among other things
Walbro 255lph HP pump rewired

Any and all suggestions/diagnosis tips are welcome. Thanks!

[AWD DSM 1]

fuses all good?

[turbohcar]

As far as I can tell. Is there a seperate fuse for the injectors themselves though? 'Cause the fuel pump is working.

[BudmannG]

What about that relay under the dash by the ecu? I think it has something to do with the injectors.

[turbohcar]

I have no idea Bud. I think I'm going to try a non-eprom ECU and see if it will just make the injectors prime. That should give me an indication if it's ECU related. In any case the ECU has a 1yr warranty on it through Keydiver so I should be covered.

[turbohcar]

Well, it's not the ECU. After trying the Eprom with the mod chip, the Eprom with the stock chip, and the Non Eprom, none of them make the injectors prime so.... I'm looking for something in between the injectors and the ECU that would create a break in the circuit. Any other suggestions? And what is this injector relay box that Bud is talking about?

[AWD DSM 1]

It's the MPI relay, located on the passenger side down by the ECU, little gold box. I'd also check the injector reistor pack, silver box on the firewall.

[turbohcar]

Too bad I don't have any replacement MPI relays. I might have an injector resistor pack though.... I'll go check.

[mitsu90]

if an auto MPI relay is the same as a 5 speed. I have one.

[mitsu90]

also did you check the MPI fuse?

[turbohcar]

MPI fuse is OK, no breaks in the fuse.
Injector resistor pack is fine, I replaced it with a known good one and nothing happened.
I retested with Eprom and non Eprom ECUs in all forms and none worked.

One thing I did try is to pour a small amount of raw gasoline directly into the cylinders (less than a teaspoon) and it sounded like it fired twice so that's a plus.

Sounds like an MPI relay as it's my last resort.

Mitsu90, PM me your address and what you want for the relay. Thanks!

[BudmannG]

It's the MPI relay, located on the passenger side down by the ECU, little gold box. I'd also check the injector reistor pack, silver box on the firewall.

Thank you Rob for getting that answer. I had alot going on today with car also! But yes Bret that was what I was talking about.

[AWD DSM 1]

Are the fuel injectors new or used? Have they been sitting around long? I know Spy had a problem with a set of cleaned and balanced 550's after they sat around for too long... I think they basically froze up. Worth mentioning.

[wortdog]

Yeah, I've had cleaned injectors freeze up on me also if they sat for several months before they were installed.

[turbohcar]

These are freshly cleaned and balanced disk style 780's (a used set I bought from Marcus). They've been wrapped in a paper towel inside a ziplock bag for about a month or so and haven't left my room since this week. Don't know if that helps at all or not.

Is there a way to "thaw" them out?

[natedogg]

Sit on 'em for a while.

[turbohcar]

Hardy Har Har Har!

[AWD DSM 1]

I think there's a way to clean them at home... might be worth a shot. Can't find the link at the moment...

[turbohcar]

They shouldn't need cleaning should they? They were just cleaned and balanced about a month ago.

[awd4kicks]

Are you positive there is fuel at the rail yet. Without burning yourself up, pull off the fuel return line or the feed line, direct it somewhere safe and crank the engine over to see if there is fuel getting to the rail. Then you will at least know what end of the system to look at.

[turbohcar]

The new fuel gauge is registering pressure at the regulator so I'm assuming there is fuel pressure. I suppose I could pull the line off and make sure though.

If it helps any I can hear the pump turn on while I'm cranking and I have checked the feed line several times and haven't found any leaks.

The AFPR is adjusted all the way out and the gauge reads 27psi.

[awd4kicks]

If you have fuel at the rail, then have someone use a test light at each injector plug to make sure the signal is getting to the injectors. Only after checking those two things would I mess with the injectors themselves.

[awd4kicks]

Those little test lights just sense voltage. You can pick them up cheap at just about any autoparts store and maybe walmart. It's just a little probe with a light that comes on when voltage is present.

[turbohcar]

I've got a nice test light at home. I guess I never thought to check for signal at the injectors. DER! I'll do that tonight.

Mitsubishi here in town has an MPI relay in stock that I can have at well under Retail. I think I'm going to go pick it up this afternoon if anything just to have a spare.

[turbohcar]

Bought the new MPI relay, put it in, no dice.

After pulling one of the injector harnesses off while I had my assistant crank the engine, the darker wire gets power while the lighter colored one doesn't. It's not like a signal power either, it's on constantly but I suppose that doesn't matter.

Looks like I've got trouble with the injectors!?!?

[turbohcar]

Problem is, I sold my originals to AWD POS DSM 1 awhile back. Otherwise I would homeboy.

[AWD DSM 1]

I've got a stock set also.

[turbohcar]

I'll have to take you up on that. You'll have a PM in about 5.23 seconds.

[awd4kicks]

After pulling one of the injector harnesses off while I had my assistant crank the engine, the darker wire gets power while the lighter colored one doesn't. It's not like a signal power either, it's on constantly but I suppose that doesn't matter.

Looks like I've got trouble with the injectors!?!?

Brett, The power should light the test light up in short and quick bursts just as if it were firing the injector when cranking the engine. Touch the probe on one side of the plug and ground to the other side while cranking to verify you are seeing pulses similar to that which will fire an injector.

I'll be interested to see what the stock injectors do.

[natedogg]

Depending on how quickly the your test light drains its current, you may not be able to discern separate pulses. If you know anyone near you that has a multimeter that will measure frequency and/or duty cycle, you can use that to measure the number of pulses per second (frequency in Hz) or the injector duty cycle.

[turbohcar]

Looks like I'll have to borrow a multimeter. I just tried doing the test that Marcus described and the light got dim as I cranked but I wasn't able to discern between pulses. The darker (brown wire) would be powered when the ignition is ON and get dim when I started cranking. The other lighter (yellow w/ stripe) wire has no power to it at all so I assumed it was the ground. I hooked the wires up accordingly, grounded the yellow, hooked the brown one up to the test light and got those results. The power wire also goes off when the ECU powers off.

Mind you all of this is with the brand new MPI relay.

[black92_tsi_awd]

The AFPR is adjusted all the way out and the gauge reads 27psi.

Is 27 psi enough pressure for the injectors to fire??

Isn't the pressure supposed to be 38-40 psi? It seems to me that if your still only getting 27 psi at the gauge something isn't right. The pump could be bad. Did you use rubber hose to connect the pump in the tank? They've been know to split, which would bleed off all your pressure.

[turbohcar]

http://members.shaw.ca/costall/1000Q/

27 / 36-38 psi
Fuel pressures given are at curb idle. 1G numbers are as follows: the first number is stock; the second number is with the fuel pressure regulator vacuum hose disconnected and plugged.

I've also got the AFPR adjustment screw backed out all the way in order to achieve the 27psi number.

[natedogg]

Hmm. I run mine at a base pressure with the vacuum hose connected of 37 psi. When the vacuum hose is disconnected and plugged it jumps to about 42 psi. Given the relatively small difference (5 psi) between my two numbers, I have a hard time believing that particular vfaq which shows a difference of ~10 psi. Plus I don't think I've ever heard of anyone running there fuel pressure that low. I've always heard 37 psi is stock on 1G's.

I'd try cranking your fuel pressure up. It may not help, but its worth a try.

[turbohcar]

Fuel pressure is set at 37psi now, still no fire. Just keeps cranking...

[turbohcar]

Finally got that Turd running tonight! Amazingly enough it took some new injectors (thanks to Spyguy for the 720s) and a non-eprom ECU. More investigation to come tomorrow morning.

[awd4kicks]

W T F !?!?! Was it the ecu or the freshly dousched injectors?

[turbohcar]

OK, here are the results.

The 780's don't work regardless of what I do. I put the 720's in and they will only run with a stock ECU (even the Eprom with the stock chip). It will not run with the Wortchip or the 780's regardless of what combination.

Sorry for the delay. I've only had a few minutes here and there in the past couple days to work on it.

[Chicago_DSM]

I haven't installed my walbro for the 2 months I've had it...Everytime I attempt to get the fuel fitting off, even with the 2 correct line wrenches, it's a no-go...I think Im actually stripping the nut...

Next week Im gonna try using some Vice Grips, and if thats a no-go also, then I might have to make a new fuel line and all with my friends flaring tool....Those bolts, yeah, let's hope those don't break either, not so confident....I will have my buddy tap it out and we'll go from there...Jeez, PB blaster is no match for my fuel pump

[awd4kicks]

Turbohcar, callthe folks that cleaned the injectors. Their info will be on the receipt I gave you with the injectors. Ask if the have any suggestions. If they don't then let me have a shot at getting them to work. They simply can't be a lost cause.

[black92_tsi_awd]

I haven't installed my walbro for the 2 months I've had it...Everytime I attempt to get the fuel fitting off, even with the 2 correct line wrenches, it's a no-go...I think Im actually stripping the nut...

Get a small wire brush in a Dremel and get rid of all the rust buildup on the threads and where the tube comes through the nut. That way the PB can penetrate through to the threads. I also put a small block of wood between the tube and the top of the tank, so you can really bear down on the wrenches,

[street_dreams_ds...]

Drill them out and get a self tapping bolt. The ones in the blue talon did the same thing as yours. It leaked until I drilled it and put bolts in.

won't that put hot metal shavings into the tank?

thats what i was thinking...

[turbohcar]

I was actually very careful with how I drilled the studs out and drained the tank AFTER I did the drilling and I got all the shavings out. Surprisingly, there was more dirt and shavings in the tank before I started drilling than after.

I'll try and call them tomorrow Marcus. Thanks

[street_dreams_ds...]

i didnt realize this post was this long, only read to the first page...

I ended up cutting the line were the fitting is, and putting a high pressure line there with some hose clamps... works ok for me. now i dont mess with that fitting thats always rusted

[turbohcar]

I called and talked with the guy that cleaned the injectors. He said that more than likely they are a set of High impedance injectors and the 1G Turbo ECU is made to work with Low impedance injectors, therefore causing the trouble. He said that's the only way all four of them wouldn't work.

The VFaq says that non-turbo models use High impedance injectors while the turbo models use the Low impedance injectors. Could it be possible when somebody ordered them that they ordered a set for a non-turbo by accident?

[awd4kicks]

That's funny they worked with my BR500 for about 300 miles with no issues. Call me so we can meet up and I'll make them work in my car and then you can put them back in yours.

[turbohcar]

ohm the injectors out.

Electrical systems in general is not my forte. Please explain.

Kicks, I'll call here in a bit.

[wortdog]

High impedence injectors over 650cc or so don't exist unless they're custom made.

[turbohcar]

Well, went to Kicks house yesterday and watched these same 780cc injectors run in his car. Don't ask me why they don't run in mine, I have no idea. He was also kind enough to give me a chip that he got from NCGalant free of charge. I'll try them here sometime this weekend in my car and get the new transfer case up at least.

[turbohcar]

Well, it's all over boys. I sold the motor today to none other than Rob (AWD DSM 1) who was also kind enough to assist me with taking it out and using his engine hoist. Rob has become quite the expert at DSM demolition (and builds) and I'm sure the motor will serve him well. As for me, I'm moving on into the different and unknown. PM me for details if you need parts.

The problem with the injectors is resolved and attributed to an accidental bad Eprom chip.