The TALON, Running Project Report Options

[awd4kicks]

I'm going to start my version of the DSMCentral project report others have been doing for a while now.

There is a lot of history that can be filled in later, but I'd like to start with the current upgrade path to date. In that vein I'd like to start of with the math or 'Engineering' if I may be so bold.

When building up a project car I think most of us have found it's best to have a goal in mind, otherwise you will end-up spending more money than necessary and for things that may or may not add to the total package.

The Talon has always been a work in progress for better acceleration with a heavy lean toward handling. I love to drag race, and I really like to autocross, and have a dream to be a road race driver burried in the back of my mind under all of the day to day responsibilites. This mentality has given the Talon a basic strut and coil over set-up with a front-to-rear spool that makes handling a breeze and makes a good roller for what ever power plant I can afford. With that in mind my upgrade goal is driven to increase acceleration.

How do you measure acceleration when you love to drag race? 1/4 mile ET's!

GOALS
10.8-11.3 sec. - Tentative 1/4 mile goal (Traction, Driving, breakage and planet alignment at perfect levels obviously )

3280Lb's - Near stock weight of vehicle with driver

460 - 550HP - Approximate wheel HP required via 1/4 mile calculator

555 - 663HP - Approximate crank HP required assuming 17% drivetrain loss

SUPPORTING REQUIREMENTS

FUEL
620HP - Max Wlaboro 255HP Fuel pump supply figuring 30psi boost in a 25% safety margin (10% options &.6 BSFC?)
(255lph/3.785=67gph x 7.25=485lbs/hr / .625=776 max HP / 1.25=622 HP)
(Correction 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .625=638 max HP / 1.25=510 HP)
(Optional #1? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .625=638 max HP / 1.10=580 HP)
(Optional #2? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .600=665 max HP / 1.10=604 HP)
(Optional #3? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .560=712 max HP / 1.15=619 HP)
(Optional #4? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .560=712 max HP / 1.10=647 HP)

600LPH - Fuel volume/flow of (Stevetek style) 6AN DSM fuel system @ 60psi
(2.35 times allowable volume than pump can supply)

488HP – Fuel supply through (4) 850cc injectors at stock pressure
(850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.60=122HP/injector x 4=488HP)
(850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=130HP/injector x 4=520HP)
(950cc/10.5=90lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=145HP/injector x 4=580HP)
(1000cc/10.5=95lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=152HP/injector x 4=608HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.80(duty cycle)/.60=203HP/injector x 4=812HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=244HP/injector x 4=976HP)
Optional injector sizes listed - HP amounts still questionably low dont they.
After running out of injector at 20psi and my base fuel pressure cranked up to 48psi I think it's safe to say that these calculation are much more correct when they are conservative. In light of this I have rerun the numbers using ,65 as the lowest BSFC possible to keep the HP numbers realistic. (850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.65=112HP/injector x 4=448HP)
(1150cc/10.5=109lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.65=151HP/injector x 4=606HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.75(duty cycle)/.65=175HP/injector x 4=701HP)

*This is obviously a questionable level. I need to recheck the figures but do plan on upping the fuel pressure if it will help sufficiently. With the same math except 100% duty cycle my stock 450 injectors figure out to support 288HP which figures pretty close to where I was with the 12.6 quarter mile runs. 850cc is 1.95 times bigger than 450s which I would like to say equates to 503HP at stock fuel pressures and 90% duty cycle.
Hmmm…can anyone shed better light on this? I would think 850cc injectors would be more than enough for 600crank HP, but it may be wishful thinking.

TURBO
503WHP/428WTQ – Max power applied with FP3052 ball bearing turbo on 93 octane
(See dyno chart in my garage – obviously is not my dyno run but a very similar build-up. This would figure up to 603HP and 515ft/lb’s of torque at the crank at 17% drive train loss. )

CLUTCH
400ft/lbs – Approximate holding power of existing 2600Pressure plate with street disk
500ft/lbs – Approximate holding power of ACT 2600 pressure plate with 6 puck disk
600ft/lbs – Approximate holding power of ACT 2900 pressure plate with street disk

MISC Support mods
1G EPROM ECU – remapped for 850cc injectors by NCGalant
Victory Performance Street front mount with 2.5” aluminum piping
FRH Intake manifold
Stage 2 ported head w/ .5mm oversized valves & dual valve springs w/ titanium retainers
Ported 2G exhaust manifold
Tial 44mm External waste gate to external dump
Tial Blow-off valve
3.5” GM MAF and 2.5” Dejontool blow through piping
GM MAF translator for fine tuning
TRE front to rear differential spool in an otherwise stock but fresh 1993 transmission
Koni Yellow struts and shocks with Eibach coilover springs set at about 1.5” drop
13lb. 16” RX7 rims wrapped with Sumitomo P225/50R16 fatties
Light weight battery

Let me know if anyone has more info on the products I have listed or input on this project. A lot of my numbers are approximate so don’t get too nitpicky on me. [/COLOR]

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[wortdog]

Just as an FYI, a re-wired Walbro 255hp only flows a hair over 210lph at 30psi of boost(assuming around 40psi base pressure) and decreases dramatically past that point. By 40psi of boost, its down to 160lph.

Cams? You're probably not going to go over 500whp on pumpgas without them.

[awd4kicks]

Thanks Wort. Any help on the injectors?

Just to clarify, I don't expect to reach this goal right out of the gate this spring. As usual it will be a work in progress for the goal I'm aiming for.

FP3 cams are in the plan, just not purchased yet. This is the reason I'm having the dual valve spring kits installed.

I've added the fuel pump correction at 30psi boost and a couple of optional figures using a bit less safety factor.

I could also use a better explanation of BSFC. I've read this factor should be between .65 to .68 for forced induction with an absolute minimum of .60 . I'm not sure how this figure relates in the real world. Is this a factor of something else I can adjust, or is it just based on physics such as atmospheric pressure or the like?

[wortdog]

As far as the injectors and the BSFC, 0.52-0.55 works well for turbocharged cars on racegas, 0.56-0.60 seems to work for pumpgas.

The 850's will be questionable, the only way to know for sure would be to run them and find out.

The dyno graph in your garage definately has some detonation/weirdness going on after 6k rpm, probably hitting the knock threshold there. 428ft/lbs of torque on pump gas is a ton, not too suprised that it was knocking some.

[awd4kicks]

I ran some optional calculations with the 210lph measurement and varied the BSFC figure between my original .625 and your recommended minimum of .56 and lower safety factors than I was originally planning. It looks like the target goal of 600-660 crank HP could be possible depending on how these formulas relate to the real world.

(Optional #1? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .625=638 max HP / 1.10=580 HP)
(Optional #2? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .600=665 max HP / 1.10=604 HP)
(Optional #3? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .560=712 max HP / 1.15=619 HP)
(Optional #4? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .560=712 max HP / 1.10=647 HP)

Here are some optional results with the injector formula ran at .56 and .60 BSFC. and the duty cycle jacked up to 90% for the most part to get closer to the target.
(850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=130HP/injector x 4=520HP)
(950cc/10.5=90lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=145HP/injector x 4=580HP)
(1000cc/10.5=95lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=152HP/injector x 4=608HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.80(duty cycle)/.60=203HP/injector x 4=812HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=244HP/injector x 4=976HP)

In my opinion these HP figures are still questionably low considering Darryl runs the 1600's deep into the 9's looking for 8's. I'm not sure what Shepard is running for injector, but he is running alchy, so that wont add up at all.

[AWD DSM 1]

Daryl's also running high octane fuel with Nitrous... Are you planning on running 93? Plus his car weights a heck of a lot less than yours. There are a lot of factors to consider...

[awdnot2]

If I remember correctly we're around 65% duty cycle with the 1600cc injectors.


John does run alcohol and 2 sets of injectors.

[awd4kicks]

You are right, there are absolutely a TON of factors to consider Rob. They are all swirelying around my head almost all the time. This is why I'm laying out the info and my opinions. To weigh them against others experience and opinions.

Weight is a consideration, but the HP levels required to meet some known ET's are out there above the formula's ability to calculate in my opinion. For instance Natdogg and I seen a guy on TV running a Mustang into the high seven second range who was dynoing like 1600HP! Does it take that much HP to run a 7.99 in a lightened race car? If so Shepard is doing it with four cylinders and Darryl is attempting to be there close with the 1600cc injectors as far as I know. 1300, 1200, 1100... they are all out of reach by the formula even with the lower BSFC allowed by using higher octane as seen in this example: (1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.52=244HP/injector x 4=1052HP)

BTW - 500WHP on 93 octane is the goal with the ability to turn up the wick at the track using race gas.

Keep the info coming. I'm eager to get this right!

[awd4kicks]

If I remember correctly we're around 65% duty cycle with the 1600cc injectors.


John does run alcohol and 2 sets of injectors.

Wow! 65% duty cycle!? That isn't even close to what the formula is figuring for the HP levels I can assume you are at.

[AWD DSM 1]

I think the high octane fuel makes a heck of a difference. There's a site with a guy that has run 10's with a lightened FWD using the stock 14b and 450 injectors. Ovbiously on 116.

[natedogg]

If I remember correctly we're around 65% duty cycle with the 1600cc injectors.


John does run alcohol and 2 sets of injectors.

Wow! 65% duty cycle!? That isn't even close to what the formula is figuring for the HP levels I can assume you are at.

There are a couple assumptions being made through the use of those equations in relation to Darryl's HP output.

1. You are assuming he is running the injectors at the nominal fuel pressure for the claimed 1600cc/min flow. If Darryl is running a pressure higher than this, then his actual injector flow may be higher (ie. 1700cc/min or higher). Thus decreasing the required duty cycle to make equal hp.

2. Darryl's use of wet nitrous hasn't been taken into consideration.

Rob, the high octane is supposedly taken into consideration with a lower BSFC in the equation.

[awd4kicks]

True & true...

Do you feel that the fuel formula is correct then? That is the only reason for even using darryl as an example in this instance.

[natedogg]

Well, if there is anything that I've learned from being both on the development and testing sides of the fence while working for Cat, its that theory rarely if ever matches perfectly with practical application.

In other words, the formula should get you close to what you're looking for using the BIG variables, but as alluded to earlier there are multiple unaccounted for smaller variables that will affect the outcome.

Exactly how close the formula will get you would be an exercise in statistics...and I try my hardest to stay away from that shit.

[awd4kicks]

Hahaha...cool. Well I talked to Chris at winner's circle for an outside reference and he gave me some promissing numbers from Holley. That is until he tolde me they were using .45 BSFC more than likely for naturally aspirated conditions.
I took his number removed the .45 BSFC and applied the .56BSFC and it came out exaclty to the 520HP I had come up with previously using my numbers for the 850cc injectors.

I agree that formulas are there just to get you close and I will tune from there. This information is leading me to believe I will be short by 80-140HP of fuel supply to meet my 500WHP goal on pump gas. I have access to a wide band and once running again I will find out if she starts to run lean on me.

Thanks for the input on the fuel formula's guys. Any other insight or opinions on this project are also welcome.

Marcus

[ncgalant]

Just as a reference, on my 327WHP run I was around 9:1 A/F and based on my timing was between 70-80% duty on my 720s. Given that I was at 70% DC then I would have made 420whp on 90% DC and could get near 500whp if I could have leaned it out to 11:1 or so. Yours should be about the same except with a bigger injector.

One of the main things that will help your motor is the power being at lower revs. You should have time for much longer PWs than if you were running 9000 rpms.

[wortdog]

One of the main things that will help your motor is the power being at lower revs. You should have time for much longer PWs than if you were running 9000 rpms.

That doesn't actually hold up. To make the same power at a lower RPM, you need more torque, which requires a larger injector pulse anyway. However, making more torque at a lower RPM IS easier for fuel injectors than making the same torque at a higher RPM, which is probably how you were thinking about it.

To make X HP, you need a minimum of Y fuel, no matter if you're turning 3,000RPM or 20,000RPM.

[ncgalant]

I hate being wrong, but you're right. Either way, I don't see why, using numbers I've seen in real life, that you couldn't make 500whp on 850cc injectors.

[awd4kicks]

FINALLY! I now have an EPROM ECU.

Hey NCGalant! Are you available for me to drop this puppy by for a chip flash?

[awd4kicks]

Ok here is the Cylinder head update post:

This stage two head I purchased a year or so ago is looking good, but is also proof that it is not worth building up an exotic head unless you are planning on really needing it.

I originally purchased this stage 2 head with stock cams and flow bench documentation for $750. I installed it on this 2.4 stroker for the first time this year. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I ended up blowing the head gasket from cylinder #3 to the coolant port.

I sent the head of to Webber Racing in Ohio for any repair that may have been required and to get it O-ringed to keep this head gasket failure from following my progress around. They quoted $150 for the O-ringing and and like $65 to machine the surface if that was required. That is a good price regardless of the shipping.

Well as luck would have it they also found that the valves were not seating well even after trying to lap them in. So all the valves got re-faced and the seats were all recut. They provided new valve seals and Spring retainer locks since the originals were hammered. All said and done with shipping, cleaning, o-ringing machining, and assembly I ended up dropping $670 on the rework. This doesn't include the $380 I spent with Forced Performance for their dual spring upgrade kit with titanium retainers.

Total into this Stage 2 head with stock cams so far: $1800 Freakin Dollars!!!

Is it worth it, I'd say no. Does it look awesome and should hold-up to just about anything I throw at it? Sure. All in all it's not a bad set-up and I'm glad I sent the head to Webber because if I sent it elsewhere the quality wouldn't have been there or I would have paid much more.

This also means I'll have to wait a bit for the FP3 cams I want since that money went right in the head.

Here are a few pictures of the results. I hope to have her up and running by next week sometime.

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[awd4kicks]

Close up of the O-ring area.

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[awd4kicks]

Close-up of the Dual spring set-up.

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[haunter]

nice!

[natedogg]

Looking good man!

Good to hear Weber treated you well. I'll have to stick that in my back pocket for whenever or if ever my stock head starts limiting me.

Btw, I have a used HKS 264 intake cam on the exchange that you can have pretty cheap. Don't know how much it would actually be worth without an exhaust cam to go with it though...

[Hult250R]

so exactly what kind of o-rings go on the head?
Im looking at purchasing a block thats been o-ringed and am curious what and where to get them.

[awd4kicks]

so exactly what kind of o-rings go on the head?
Im looking at purchasing a block thats been o-ringed and am curious what and where to get them.

The O-rings you are looking for are exactly the same as what I had installed in the cylinder head. You can put them in either the block or the head. Most choose the block. From what I hear this is because the head needs remachined more often than the block and without O-rings will make the rework price less expensive.

The O-ring is simply a piece of stainless steel wire that is fit into a groove cut in the head or deck surface by a machine shop. There may be a shop locally that can do this work, but I couldn't find one. Webber racing can take care of you if you can't locate one.

[Mitsu 77]

Looks really good, what is the head flowing?

[Turbo Tension]

holy shit Marcus you've modded the hell out of that car!

[awd4kicks]

The cool thing is, it still pretty much looks stock like it always did aside from the monster FMIC behind the bumper.

[AWD DSM 1]

From the outside anyway... pop the hood and I think that big hairdryer sticks out pretty good.

[awd4kicks]

Yeah it's definitely different under the hood, but it's not blingin show car. The other comuter's won't suspect the punch she's packin for the most part.

[natedogg]

Yeah it's definitely different under the hood, but it's not blingin show car.  The other comuter's won't suspect the punch she's packin for the most part. 

Once you put those cams in they might.

[awd4kicks]

Stock appearing? Not hardley. My memory of the stock like 14b car was a little off.

The air noise from the BOV and the turbo are unavoidable calling cards for attention to this thing when drivng at anything over 20% throttle.

The popping noise came back the next day after the spark plugs were replaced with 8's though. I found a problem where I was losing fuel pressure as the RPM's went up. A simple elimination of the factory FPR solenoid, that I should have done a long time ago seemed to take care of the issue once and for all. So I appologize for missleading anyone with the spark plug issue. The spark plug wires are the only other thing that was altered both times the popping was stopped. They are the good Taylor wires and they ohm'd out to be in good shape. Right now I'm just happy the popping is gone.

NCGalant and I finally got it tuned to run WOT with out knock. I had to sacrifice more timing and give more fuel to do it, but she's running hard at 20psi with virtually no knock at WOT. Some of you know how hard it is for me to give up glorious timing, and boost while adding more of the fuel I am running out of. It is good for a base tune though.

I've found that the formulas for fuel injectors and fuel pump are not too conservative. I had to raise my fuel pressure to a base of 48psi just to get the 850's from 115% duty cycle to 90% duty cycle and the fuel pump is falling off at about 7k RPM. Again this is at 20 freakin PSI and we still need to put a little timing back into the program. She pulls good right now, but until I upgrade the injectors and fuel pump I can niether turn up the boost or get the larger cams I want. I may have to throw in some race gas at SloPny Drag Day to see a respectible number.

One problem that is irritating me on the base tune is the fact that I'm getting full knock at like 15-20% throttle all the time. This just so happens to be the throttle position that you run in almost all the time under normal comuting conditions. So I get little or no timing and the power output is very unstable at this level. Plus if you dip into the throttle from this knocking condition you retain the knock (well we did before we killed the knock) Does anyone have any ideas on this VERY light throttle knock?

[natedogg]

In the past I've been able to tune out that cruise knock with the idle and/or mid throttle adjustments on the MAFT. You could also try the RPM dependent tuning on it to see if that helps at low RPM.

Are you running a Walbro 255 high pressure right now? Are all your fuel lines upgraded? If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then chances are I'll need to upgrade my fuel pump as well. What are you thinking about upgrading to?

[turbohcar]

The Cosmo or Supra pump is as high as you can go for in-tank pumps as far as I know. After that' it's the Aeromotive in-line 1000hp pump.

[Mitsu 77]

Acctualy the walbro 255HP out flows the cosmo pump. But if any one wants one I have one.

[wortdog]

If you've eliminated the EGR, you'll want to back off your part throttle/low rpm timing a bit. That should help with the part throttle knock.

[awd4kicks]

Fuel lines are all upgraded to 6AN and the pump is a Walboro 255HP. I haven't really looked around for a better pump yet. I still need to do some research there.

Thanks Wort, I have eliminated the EGR a long time ago and I believe NC has made an attempt to reduce knock by pulling out low and mid range timing. I think at the time of this change we were aiming at cleaning up WOT knock by not letting it get started early on in the RPM band. However, the part throttle, or barely on the gas condition is still throwing wild knock counts out.

BTW, I forgot how much AWD Drifts rock! Jbone says the Talon's power delivery feels ok right now, but conservative and that spool is on with no lag. I can feel some lag if I start too low in the RPM band, but it is probably not much worse than my 14b was I guess.

[awd4kicks]

After running out of injector at 20psi and my base fuel pressure cranked up to 48psi I think it's safe to say that these injector calculations are much more realistic when they are conservative. In light of this I have re-run the numbers using .65 as the lowest BSFC possible to keep the HP numbers in a realistic range. The Injector Clinic has an 1150cc injector option now for $370 or amazingly I can get 1600cc injectors from them for $260. As you can see by the numbers the 1150's will be at their max to run the crank HP I want. The 1600cc have plenty to spare but I hear Idle is impossible. I know Darryl's Race car idles. Does anyone have more input on this? 1600cc's seem like the way to go.

(850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.65=112HP/injector x 4=448HP)
(1150cc/10.5=109lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.65=151HP/injector x 4=606HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.75(duty cycle)/.65=175HP/injector x 4=701HP)

[wortdog]

I've heard a couple guys say they've used 1600's with a stock ECU and it idles mostly ok. The only way to get the 1600's perfect is to run a standalone that can control low impedence injectors without a resistor box.

The 1600's are cheap because they're very commonly used with methanol setups, so more people buy them than 1150's.

[ncgalant]

Yea, that car ran out of fuel faster than anything I could have ever imagined. 11.5-11:1 A/F with the duty at 100%. With the fuel pressure higher there was more in it, but the pump couldn't keep the pressure up. The A/F would start to climb to 12:1 past 5500.

I've got the double MAF hz logging on and it pegs 3214 by 4500 rpms.

[awd4kicks]

Yea, that car ran out of fuel faster than anything I could have ever imagined...

I've got the double MAF hz logging on and it pegs 3214 by 4500 rpms.

Thats pretty cool in a sick and HP dimented way!

[turbohcar]

Yea, that car ran out of fuel faster than anything I could have ever imagined.  11.5-11:1 A/F with the duty at 100%.  With the fuel pressure higher there was more in it, but the pump couldn't keep the pressure up.  The A/F would start to climb to 12:1 past 5500.

I've got the double MAF hz logging on and it pegs 3214 by 4500 rpms.

[turbohcar]

:blah darn keys!

[awd4kicks]

Stop the presses...

I found a few problems over the weekend and one of them has really thrown off the fuel supply numbers. Please dissregard my last post about fuel delivery for now. After the smoke has cleared and I'm running a clean tune I'll revise this thread as required for good reference information.

The rest of the story:

After giving Turbohcar his working 78occ injectors back and reinstalling my 850cc injectors with my EPROM chip, my car experienced a few problems. On the first try the engine started right up and ran fine. I turned the engine off to move the Saturn. When I came back to the Talon the engine would crank, but not start.

I spent the rest of Friday tracking down my ignition, fuel and wiring. I found a power wire to my Water Injection shorted out under a bolt. I also found the the fuel pump fuse on my rewire, just smoked! Half of the fuse was charcoal and the other half looked normal. I'd say it popped but kept some sort of contact with a lot of resistance which also partially melted the fuse holder. I started over on Saturday and narrowed the problem to the injectors not firing. Rob kindly loaned me his non-EPROM ECU to test with. With this I was able to eliminate the rest of the wiring as the culprit. I talked to a number of members, tested the injector transistors as well as 3/4 of the other parts on the ECU. All checked ok. By Sunday NCGalant brought a new EPROM chip and she was starting like her old self again. I feel the dead short on the WI kit cleared the memory on the EPROM chip. just strange timing.

With the new EPROM we began tuning runs again. Things were a lot different with a new fuel pump wire/fuse holder and fuse. There seems to be fuel for days now. We were WAY rich, but before we could get 'er tuned in the old girl developed a boost leak of some sort.

So on to the next problem of the Perpetual world of DSM issues. I'll keep you updated.

[AWD DSM 1]

At least it's running! I'd say that's a good day in the life of a DSM!

[awd4kicks]

That is VERY true! I had my arms up in Victory when the engine started on it's own ECU and the new EPROM chip.

[ncgalant]

I pulled the date back off of the two eproms he had tried when it was shorting. One was all 0's and the other was full of garbage. Just as a control I pulled the one I had been running in the laser and it was all clean. That just goes to show that a power spike can do some crazy things.

[awd4kicks]

I re-ran my boost lines and reset my MBC and hooked up my water injection. I also made a 4" diameter boost leak checker. Found that my two piece Forrester Racing Head intake manifold is leaking at the seam. so I'm going to pull it apart and reseal it. Then we will see how it runs.

[AWD DSM 1]

4" boost leak checker... that's awesome!

[awd4kicks]

Absolutely. I've got your TA ECU also.

[ncgalant]

GREAT!! From the symptoms it had to be a boost leak past the MAF. I'm just happy you have enough fuel to run 9.5:1 A/f all of the way through

[awd4kicks]

Back together again with the upper intake resealed and poly mounts installed front and rear on the motor. Also have a new reverse light switch installed and the upper intercooler piping re-routed to keep it in one piece.

I can't say that I like the extra vibration heard at low RPM's with the Poly mounts in, but it could be worse and the benefits are there.

I toyed with boost levels and fuel supply via MAFT on and off all day. So far up to about 27psi and still not too lean with the wideband reading a max of 11.6-11.8 in forth in the cooler weather tonight. I'm also feeling it start to pull timing as the knock did climb to 22 counts in forth, but this is on some lower grade 92 with 10% ethynol. 3rd felt great all the way through. I feel she could use some more fine tuning. For now I'm pretty happy with the performance with the previous bugs worked out.

Got a good 2nd gear bark going into second in the middle of the day... That was pretty sweet.

[black92_tsi_awd]

I windo-welded my mount and it shakes the steering wheel pretty good at idle too. Kind of annoying, but I've learned to live with it.

Glad to hear it's running good.

So the MAFT is your only tuning aid? Just wondering, because if it's good enough to tune your setup, it'll more than enough to tune mine.

[awd4kicks]

I'm always up for a fun run

But here's my back pocket excuse... It's always a work in progress.
3rd = frieght train
4th = a slowing frieght train

We will be adding some BP 93 octane today and cross my fingers that everything else holds together for a while.

[ncgalant]

I windo-welded my mount and it shakes the steering wheel pretty good at idle too. Kind of annoying, but I've learned to live with it.

Glad to hear it's running good.

So the MAFT is your only tuning aid? Just wondering, because if it's good enough to tune your setup, it'll more than enough to tune mine.

MAFT + EPROM set for 1000cc injectors

[awd4kicks]

hitting 4th would probably help too!

That remains to be seen, but it couldn't hurt.

[awd4kicks]

YEAH! I think I found my nitch! From now on I only go from 30MPH to 45MPH in fifth. Except for V8 domestics...

[awd4kicks]

Hahaha DSM's are so predictable!

Emotional equalibrium...
The high of performance
The low of breakage
The mustering of perservierance
The feeling of accomplishment
The high of performance... Etc.

After some fun last weekend I decided I needed to take care of an oil leak that had been smoking off of the exhaust. I found the typical DSM oil pan leak. So Wednesday night I had the oil pan off and resealing it with a high quality GM sealant.

Thursday I made a couple of quick fun runs with friends. Everything seemed to stay dry of oil, but I lost a cylinder after coming back to idle on the last 2-3-4th gear blast. So Thursday night I ended up pulling the cylinder head with Spy's help (Thanks!). This is because I found that one (yes only one) of the exaust valves on cylinde number three hung open and kissed the piston. Every other vlave looks good and the other three cylinders have good compression. The piston was hit but looks really good considering. I've talked to Rob about his fresh stock cylinder head and I've got a cheapo Felpro head gasket coming in for a Saturday morning thrash session to get this thing to Slo Pny Drag Day.

Was it because one of the old lifters siezed up, because the valve got hung up in the guide, or because the old rocker got bound up? I don't know yet, but she's been running way too good not to try to make it to the Drag Day!

[awd4kicks]

Haha No reason to mince words... I'll lay down everything she's got on sunday! Drag or be dragged.

[The Iron Goat]

You're puttin a felpro in that O-ringed head of yours? Is that a little risky considering that beast blew apart a cometic?

[awdnot2]

Since its oringed it may last forever. How high are you going to torque it?

[awd4kicks]

Yes, considering the broken cylinder head had the O-rings and the stocker wont i'd say it's chancy. Keep in mind the deck surface of the cylinder head was imperfect when I blew out the Cometic. Plus it's been documented that many have had problems sealing up their Cometics due to surfaces that are not smooth enough.

So there is a slim chance this thing may work for a few runs, maybe all day, and on the outside a couple weeks. Either way it will be there and once I get the race head fixed I will switch them back.

[awd4kicks]

Torque = 120ft/lbs

[awdnot2]

Oh yeah thats right. The temp head it not o-ringed

[JMoushon]

Marcus- Call me when you know what time you are going to do the work. I somehow lost your #, if you can believe that. I'll gladly come out and help the process. (or just watch and drool.)

[awd4kicks]

Update time...

Ok I got the cylinder head back from Kalina with three new Farrerea Stainless valves and one new guide. They also touched up the seats in a quick and affordable fashion.

I came to the conclusion (educated guess) that the problem occurred by one of the original lifters collapsing in the head under high stress allowing the rocker arm to dislodge and get caught up side ways between the cam and the valve at the wrong time.

So to help protect my investment I ordered all new 3G lifters from JNZ to replace the original 1G's along with a new stock head gasket (I love the O-ringed head). I couldn't bring myself to purchase all new rockers, but Rob set me up with a decent used set that I was able to replace the damaged rocker with.

As usual I couldn't leave well enough alone and sent more of my hard-earned cash to Forced Performance for the FP3 cams. To get them dialed in correctly I purchased the cheapest adjustable cam gears I could find from our friendly AMS people (Fidanzas ).

Everything went together nicely and it was running by Saturday afternoon. I managed to get out and about that night to test out the new (untuned set-up). The exhaust note is a bit louder and 'Brappy' if there is such a thing. These cams are made for mid range power and it shows even in the untuned stage. Low-end power to mid comes on with the most minute accelerator input. And when the engine is rev-matched properly on take-off it has all the intentions of a beast. Very satisfying in that respect.

I still need a new oxygen sensor VERY badly as any cruising speed below 3000 RPM initiates a lot of knock with any load presented that is not corrected with the accelerator and higher RPM's. This problem also leads to VERY long lag when the throttle is engaged while in the knock and little to no timing.

I hope to get a new chip burned from NCgalant soon and I need to get the cams dialed in. Even though they felt very good, there is a noticeable hint of the engine having to work against itself to rev up. This and the knock have not helped issues.

All that being said I did find a newer EVO bottom feeding on a beat-up 80's Camaro that wasn't worth his time. After witnessing his actions and intent, I eased up beside him and allowed him to stretch his legs on something more worthy of his time. Even though I remained in forth gear his initial 2 ft lead was immediately erased as I let the turbo wind up and made him chase me through a bit of fifth. I wasn't pulling bus lengths on him like I would have liked to, but he was falling back by car lengths at a rapid rate. After slowing down and finding another clear spot we again went from the high gear role. He had his share of the stretch, obviously out of breath and it was over. On the slow down he pulled up beside with the usual comment... Yeah 'I'm just stock' he said. He was a good guy and obviously excited as he stated that the Talon is fast, but I made sure he knew I didn't want any part of him in the game of turning corners. We parted ways and I went home.

More to come...

[awd4kicks]

A new Denso Oxygen sensor has been ordered from MachV that will also handle leaded fuel better.

Are you about ready for some tuning time NCGalant?

[AWD DSM 1]

I give you 3 days til it's broke again.... just kidding ODT! Glad to hear it's back on the road.

[awd4kicks]

What makes you so optomistic about this time?

[awd4kicks]

Hmmm... You were more right than you may have know Rob.

The good news is I got my aftermarket oil cooler installed. All I can say is, what a fit! It looks great, all the lines are tight and dry, and the cooler is mounted securely. Alls that was required for a good fit and finish was a little tweaking an triming on the driver side splash guards.

In the process I found that my T-belt seemed a little on the loose side so I pulled it all apart and sugged everything up. That's all good now too.

Still planning on getting the new O2 sensor in Monday.

However I run into another MAJOR hurdle to try and overcome before SCDC. I need to make some calls Monday to see if anything can be done, but right now it just looks like I'm throwing good money after bad into some sort of curse. We will see.

[akamiami]

keep at it buddy and don't loose heart. if I can help with parts or whatever just let me know.

[awd4kicks]

...short update.

Long story short. Turbo is back in the car now. Forced Performance covered it under warranty. They ROCK!

I have installed a new O2 sensor good for leaded fuel, a new 180 Thermostat, and a Fluidine aluminum radiator from Road Race.

Things are back on track now for the time being and running cool the whole time. Time to get one more tune on the EPROM before I take it to the dyno to dial in the cam gears. Where are ya NCGalant?

[ncgalant]

I'll give you a call after church. Maybe we can get together tonight

[AWD DSM 1]

If your going to be in the area sometime, let me know, I could use a quick re-check of my tune now that my boost leaks are plugged.

[awd4kicks]

Between NC & I brainstorming along with his MAD hacking skills and chip burning hardware we have been able to make the Talon pull like a CRAZY TRAIN. 17 degrees of timing churning 25-26PSI through 2.5 liters of Mad Mitsubishi resulting in a 11.8-12.5 AFR and wicked pull.

As usual, tuning for daily driving is much more difficult and time consuming than WOT tuning. We are still fighting full knock at the drop of a hat ANY and EVERY time the throttle is between 20-30% and the RPM's are at 3400RPM or less. Sometimes it is not as persistent down hills, but any uphill load with no addition of throttle results in this rediculous behavior. We've pulled timing, Added fuel to the tune of 10.8:1 with no results. Then went the other way since this lack of timing is dumping all kinds of heat into the Turbine housing. With more timing there is still full knock, but now the car soesn't fall totally on it's face. I have a hard time believing that there should be any knock below 3400RPM, with no boost, cruising at 20-30% throttle. It's rediculous.

Does anyone have any ideas or have you heard of this? This knock goes away as soon as I dip into throttle and boost. There is vertually no knock at WOT. I also don't believe it's resonance since it is often initiated by load like a VERY slight incline on a highway you are trying to drive 55-60MPH on.

She is running though. Freeway and WOT are awesome.

[awd4kicks]

UPDATE: I'm getting a new chip from NC tonight that I will try that may curb the problem. Even if it does the origin is still present. Let me know what you think.

[The Iron Goat]

You could be dealing with a sort of electrical "resonance", though. When those conditions exist, the signal voltages in several places could cause some sort of induction into the knock sensor circuit. Wild idea, but I'm stupid, so that's all I got.

[wortdog]

I had the exact same problem, I just set my ECU up to ignore knock when its not seeing any boost and turn down the cruise timing a degree or two. I assume that's what NC is doing.

[awd4kicks]

I had the exact same problem, I just set my ECU up to ignore knock when its not seeing any boost and turn down the cruise timing a degree or two. I assume that's what NC is doing.

Yeah Wort, He is thinking along the same lines. He is basicly makeing the retard map the same as the Timing map so there is no retard when it is in that range.

[awd4kicks]

You could be dealing with a sort of electrical "resonance", though.  When those conditions exist, the signal voltages in several places could cause some sort of induction into the knock sensor circuit.  Wild idea, but I'm stupid, so that's all I got.

That is possible IronGoat, though I wouldn't know how to go about tracking it down and curring it. At the same time, I would be happy if it were just a 'Phantom' situation caused by electrical interferance or resonance.

[The Iron Goat]

Such a nuissance can be remedied in a couple of ways, but electrical shielding would probably be the best idea in this case. I have a bunch of leftover shielding, so let me know if you want to explore this avenue. And perhaps even MY avenue...

[awd4kicks]

Thanks Goat. I may take you up on that as soon as I get some of these other issues ironed out. That may get your blood pumping to finish breathing life into your monster.

[ncgalant]

Hey kicks, give me a call and let me know how that chip worked out for you.

[The Iron Goat]

Thanks Goat. I may take you up on that as soon as I get some of these other issues ironed out. That may get your blood pumping to finish breathing life into your monster.

There may be more life in that monster than anyone knows....

[awd4kicks]

Planning on loading the Talon up on R&T's dyno Saturday morning around 9:30am.

My primary goal will be to find the best cam gear timing for spool and midrange for WOT runs. So it will be a tedious dyno sesion and may not net very impressive numbers.

Right now I will be happy if it breaks 400 ponies at the wheels with the plans I have in mind for tomorrow. She could barely pull away from Spy's 300 the other night so I don't expect too much.

That said anyone is more than welcome to join. I hope to only be on the dyno for a couple of hours. I'm going to pull the T-case tonight so I don't have to waste time with it tomorrow.

[awd4kicks]

Holy Sheep Ship!

Burning rubber through four gears at will is crazy!
The T-case and drive shaft are out. We are ready for the dyno tomorrow.

[black92_tsi_awd]

If your going to be there for a couple of hours, maybe I run by with my son. I need to put some miles (and tuning) on the new Supra SMIC setup anyway.

[BudmannG]

Holy Sheep Ship!

Burning rubber through four gears at will is crazy!
The T-case and drive shaft are out. We are ready for the dyno tomorrow.

OK I am not to smart on this dyno thing. If you take out the drive shaft and transfer case that leaves you with fwd. So if you say pull 500 fwhp is that the same as awdhp? Or does it loose hp adding the other two wheels?

[awd4kicks]

If I can keep the front tiresfrom spinning this will show a slightly higher HP than if I were on an AWD dyno since I wont have alot of the AWD's parasitic loss. For a base line and tuning purposes it will be fine. I will simply be comparing my baseline with improvements that I make on the same dyno.

[turbohcar]

You've got a Viscous Coupling eliminator in though right? Without the VCE it'll smoke your stocker.

[awd4kicks]

Yup... without the VCE I would have to use an AWD Dyno.

We found the best cam configuration for the Talon today that produced the least amount of knock and the most HP/torque. Our first pull with the cams straight up netted 427HP & 437ft/lbs of torque. By the time we were done we got the HP up to 452 and the Torque number matched it. Considering I've been designing it for 500 WHP and I was not looking for peak HP today I am very happy with the numbers! BTW - That calculates out to approximately 520 crank HP.

Good and bad...I'm not exactly sure where my boost was at. My gage read between 20 and 23psi through various pulls. I want to maximize boost on pump gas and I'm going to need better boost control and a gage to pin that down.

I have been running Shell 93 octane for the past couple weeks which I have been slapped around for. With more boost, better 93 octane and maybe the use of water injection 500whp should be do-able.

[black92_tsi_awd]

The car sounded good man! Looks like you tweaked the HP after I left, 450 lb of torque is insane from a 4 cylinder. I can't wait to see it run down the track.

What's wrong with Shell 93?? What's a better brand to run?

[mitsu90]

I have been running Shell 93 octane for the past couple weeks which I have been slapped around for. With more boost, better 93 octane and maybe the use of water injection 500whp should be do-able.

nate got on my for running shell 93 as well

nice numbers

[AWD DSM 1]

I've been running shell as well.... please fill us in!!!

Oh, and good numbers Marcus.... Maybe I should swap the 318 our for a 4g63....

[awd4kicks]

Yes I'm looking forward to the 1/4 mile runs as well. In bench racing mode that HP & Torque should put 11.3 to 11.5's in reach.

As far as the fuel both Rob of R&T's and NCGalant are in love with BP's gas. I don't know if they have tested all the fuels in the area, but both have had bad experiences with Shell's best grade. Low HP numbers on the dyno compared to BP and alot higher knock with Shell than BP. I don't know, it may be the detergents that Shell has causing the problems because I've always heard they were of good quality.

So regardless I will go out of my way to put BP in next time because I am fighting the low RPM knock still.

[wortdog]

I've had the best results with BP and Mobil gas as well.

[scorp28]

I don't know, it may be the detergents that Shell has causing the problems because I've always heard they were of good quality.

As far as keeping the engine clean on a daily driver I would say that shell 93(V-Power) is the best available, but as you said for high performance engines they use alot of detergents that probably aren't good for the cause.

Shell 93 uses 5 times the minimum detergents that the government requires which is 3 times any other major brand currently uses. I have seen the independent study results and seen an engine dismantled after running Shell 93 and 2 other major brands (Amaco and Sunoco) that prove it.

I used to manage a Freedom station that sold Shell fuel and had to go take an all day class when the V-power was introduced to the U.S.

[natedogg]

Awesome numbers! I'm glad she's staying together and performing so well for you. I want a ride!!

Great that you were able to free up so much hp tuning in those cams.

[AWD DSM 1]

I got a ride last night.... 3rd gear, 80mph, FWD mode....

two wheels are definately not enough to keep this rocket on the ground.....

[awd4kicks]

453HP & 457ft./lb revised numbers after reviewing the graph.

Here is a graph of the best run (in blue). I have also overlaid a very similar run to help fill in the gaps (in red). It looks like the Torque peaks out at around 4900RPM and the HP maxes out between 6000 and 6500RPM. Plus you can see the HP stays above 400HP from around 4750 to nearly 7500RPM. The torque peaks early and falls, but didn't go below 300ft./lb's until after 7K RPM. Air fuel leaned out a bit up top, but still safe.

All Dyno runs were started at or above 3500RPM to get away from my low RPM knock and shut off by 7500RPM. By the graphs it looks obvious that I don't need to stay in any particular gear after 6500 or 7000RPM. Shifting there will still keep me above 5000RPM and in the meat of the power.

I'm pleased with this base. Thanks for the kind words.

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