I'm going to start my version of the DSMCentral project report others have been doing for a while now.

There is a lot of history that can be filled in later, but I'd like to start with the current upgrade path to date. In that vein I'd like to start of with the math or 'Engineering' if I may be so bold.

When building up a project car I think most of us have found it's best to have a goal in mind, otherwise you will end-up spending more money than necessary and for things that may or may not add to the total package.

The Talon has always been a work in progress for better acceleration with a heavy lean toward handling. I love to drag race, and I really like to autocross, and have a dream to be a road race driver burried in the back of my mind under all of the day to day responsibilites. This mentality has given the Talon a basic strut and coil over set-up with a front-to-rear spool that makes handling a breeze and makes a good roller for what ever power plant I can afford. With that in mind my upgrade goal is driven to increase acceleration.

How do you measure acceleration when you love to drag race? 1/4 mile ET's!

GOALS
10.8-11.3 sec. - Tentative 1/4 mile goal (Traction, Driving, breakage and planet alignment at perfect levels obviously )

3280Lb's - Near stock weight of vehicle with driver

460 - 550HP - Approximate wheel HP required via 1/4 mile calculator

555 - 663HP - Approximate crank HP required assuming 17% drivetrain loss

SUPPORTING REQUIREMENTS

FUEL
620HP - Max Wlaboro 255HP Fuel pump supply figuring 30psi boost in a 25% safety margin (10% options &.6 BSFC?)
(255lph/3.785=67gph x 7.25=485lbs/hr / .625=776 max HP / 1.25=622 HP)
(Correction 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .625=638 max HP / 1.25=510 HP)
(Optional #1? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .625=638 max HP / 1.10=580 HP)
(Optional #2? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .600=665 max HP / 1.10=604 HP)
(Optional #3? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .560=712 max HP / 1.15=619 HP)
(Optional #4? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .560=712 max HP / 1.10=647 HP)

600LPH - Fuel volume/flow of (Stevetek style) 6AN DSM fuel system @ 60psi
(2.35 times allowable volume than pump can supply)

488HP – Fuel supply through (4) 850cc injectors at stock pressure
(850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.60=122HP/injector x 4=488HP)
(850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=130HP/injector x 4=520HP)
(950cc/10.5=90lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=145HP/injector x 4=580HP)
(1000cc/10.5=95lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=152HP/injector x 4=608HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.80(duty cycle)/.60=203HP/injector x 4=812HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=244HP/injector x 4=976HP)
Optional injector sizes listed - HP amounts still questionably low dont they.
After running out of injector at 20psi and my base fuel pressure cranked up to 48psi I think it's safe to say that these calculation are much more correct when they are conservative. In light of this I have rerun the numbers using ,65 as the lowest BSFC possible to keep the HP numbers realistic. (850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.65=112HP/injector x 4=448HP)
(1150cc/10.5=109lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.65=151HP/injector x 4=606HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.75(duty cycle)/.65=175HP/injector x 4=701HP)

*This is obviously a questionable level. I need to recheck the figures but do plan on upping the fuel pressure if it will help sufficiently. With the same math except 100% duty cycle my stock 450 injectors figure out to support 288HP which figures pretty close to where I was with the 12.6 quarter mile runs. 850cc is 1.95 times bigger than 450s which I would like to say equates to 503HP at stock fuel pressures and 90% duty cycle.
Hmmm…can anyone shed better light on this? I would think 850cc injectors would be more than enough for 600crank HP, but it may be wishful thinking.

TURBO
503WHP/428WTQ – Max power applied with FP3052 ball bearing turbo on 93 octane
(See dyno chart in my garage – obviously is not my dyno run but a very similar build-up. This would figure up to 603HP and 515ft/lb’s of torque at the crank at 17% drive train loss. )

CLUTCH
400ft/lbs – Approximate holding power of existing 2600Pressure plate with street disk
500ft/lbs – Approximate holding power of ACT 2600 pressure plate with 6 puck disk
600ft/lbs – Approximate holding power of ACT 2900 pressure plate with street disk

MISC Support mods
1G EPROM ECU – remapped for 850cc injectors by NCGalant
Victory Performance Street front mount with 2.5” aluminum piping
FRH Intake manifold
Stage 2 ported head w/ .5mm oversized valves & dual valve springs w/ titanium retainers
Ported 2G exhaust manifold
Tial 44mm External waste gate to external dump
Tial Blow-off valve
3.5” GM MAF and 2.5” Dejontool blow through piping
GM MAF translator for fine tuning
TRE front to rear differential spool in an otherwise stock but fresh 1993 transmission
Koni Yellow struts and shocks with Eibach coilover springs set at about 1.5” drop
13lb. 16” RX7 rims wrapped with Sumitomo P225/50R16 fatties
Light weight battery

Let me know if anyone has more info on the products I have listed or input on this project. A lot of my numbers are approximate so don’t get too nitpicky on me. [/COLOR]

Just as an FYI, a re-wired Walbro 255hp only flows a hair over 210lph at 30psi of boost(assuming around 40psi base pressure) and decreases dramatically past that point. By 40psi of boost, its down to 160lph.

Cams? You're probably not going to go over 500whp on pumpgas without them.

Thanks Wort. Any help on the injectors?

Just to clarify, I don't expect to reach this goal right out of the gate this spring. As usual it will be a work in progress for the goal I'm aiming for.

FP3 cams are in the plan, just not purchased yet. This is the reason I'm having the dual valve spring kits installed.

I've added the fuel pump correction at 30psi boost and a couple of optional figures using a bit less safety factor.

I could also use a better explanation of BSFC. I've read this factor should be between .65 to .68 for forced induction with an absolute minimum of .60 . I'm not sure how this figure relates in the real world. Is this a factor of something else I can adjust, or is it just based on physics such as atmospheric pressure or the like?

As far as the injectors and the BSFC, 0.52-0.55 works well for turbocharged cars on racegas, 0.56-0.60 seems to work for pumpgas.

The 850's will be questionable, the only way to know for sure would be to run them and find out.

The dyno graph in your garage definately has some detonation/weirdness going on after 6k rpm, probably hitting the knock threshold there. 428ft/lbs of torque on pump gas is a ton, not too suprised that it was knocking some.

I ran some optional calculations with the 210lph measurement and varied the BSFC figure between my original .625 and your recommended minimum of .56 and lower safety factors than I was originally planning. It looks like the target goal of 600-660 crank HP could be possible depending on how these formulas relate to the real world.

(Optional #1? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .625=638 max HP / 1.10=580 HP)
(Optional #2? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .600=665 max HP / 1.10=604 HP)
(Optional #3? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .560=712 max HP / 1.15=619 HP)
(Optional #4? 210lph/3.785=55gph x 7.25=399lbs/hr / .560=712 max HP / 1.10=647 HP)

Here are some optional results with the injector formula ran at .56 and .60 BSFC. and the duty cycle jacked up to 90% for the most part to get closer to the target.
(850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=130HP/injector x 4=520HP)
(950cc/10.5=90lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=145HP/injector x 4=580HP)
(1000cc/10.5=95lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=152HP/injector x 4=608HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.80(duty cycle)/.60=203HP/injector x 4=812HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.56=244HP/injector x 4=976HP)

In my opinion these HP figures are still questionably low considering Darryl runs the 1600's deep into the 9's looking for 8's. I'm not sure what Shepard is running for injector, but he is running alchy, so that wont add up at all.

Daryl's also running high octane fuel with Nitrous... Are you planning on running 93? Plus his car weights a heck of a lot less than yours. There are a lot of factors to consider...

If I remember correctly we're around 65% duty cycle with the 1600cc injectors.


John does run alcohol and 2 sets of injectors.

You are right, there are absolutely a TON of factors to consider Rob. They are all swirelying around my head almost all the time. This is why I'm laying out the info and my opinions. To weigh them against others experience and opinions.

Weight is a consideration, but the HP levels required to meet some known ET's are out there above the formula's ability to calculate in my opinion. For instance Natdogg and I seen a guy on TV running a Mustang into the high seven second range who was dynoing like 1600HP! Does it take that much HP to run a 7.99 in a lightened race car? If so Shepard is doing it with four cylinders and Darryl is attempting to be there close with the 1600cc injectors as far as I know. 1300, 1200, 1100... they are all out of reach by the formula even with the lower BSFC allowed by using higher octane as seen in this example: (1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.52=244HP/injector x 4=1052HP)

BTW - 500WHP on 93 octane is the goal with the ability to turn up the wick at the track using race gas.

Keep the info coming. I'm eager to get this right!

Wow! 65% duty cycle!? That isn't even close to what the formula is figuring for the HP levels I can assume you are at.

I think the high octane fuel makes a heck of a difference. There's a site with a guy that has run 10's with a lightened FWD using the stock 14b and 450 injectors. Ovbiously on 116.

There are a couple assumptions being made through the use of those equations in relation to Darryl's HP output.

1. You are assuming he is running the injectors at the nominal fuel pressure for the claimed 1600cc/min flow. If Darryl is running a pressure higher than this, then his actual injector flow may be higher (ie. 1700cc/min or higher). Thus decreasing the required duty cycle to make equal hp.

2. Darryl's use of wet nitrous hasn't been taken into consideration.

Rob, the high octane is supposedly taken into consideration with a lower BSFC in the equation.

True & true...

Do you feel that the fuel formula is correct then? That is the only reason for even using darryl as an example in this instance.

Well, if there is anything that I've learned from being both on the development and testing sides of the fence while working for Cat, its that theory rarely if ever matches perfectly with practical application.

In other words, the formula should get you close to what you're looking for using the BIG variables, but as alluded to earlier there are multiple unaccounted for smaller variables that will affect the outcome.

Exactly how close the formula will get you would be an exercise in statistics...and I try my hardest to stay away from that shit.

Hahaha...cool. Well I talked to Chris at winner's circle for an outside reference and he gave me some promissing numbers from Holley. That is until he tolde me they were using .45 BSFC more than likely for naturally aspirated conditions.
I took his number removed the .45 BSFC and applied the .56BSFC and it came out exaclty to the 520HP I had come up with previously using my numbers for the 850cc injectors.

I agree that formulas are there just to get you close and I will tune from there. This information is leading me to believe I will be short by 80-140HP of fuel supply to meet my 500WHP goal on pump gas. I have access to a wide band and once running again I will find out if she starts to run lean on me.

Thanks for the input on the fuel formula's guys. Any other insight or opinions on this project are also welcome.

Marcus

Just as a reference, on my 327WHP run I was around 9:1 A/F and based on my timing was between 70-80% duty on my 720s. Given that I was at 70% DC then I would have made 420whp on 90% DC and could get near 500whp if I could have leaned it out to 11:1 or so. Yours should be about the same except with a bigger injector.

One of the main things that will help your motor is the power being at lower revs. You should have time for much longer PWs than if you were running 9000 rpms.

That doesn't actually hold up. To make the same power at a lower RPM, you need more torque, which requires a larger injector pulse anyway. However, making more torque at a lower RPM IS easier for fuel injectors than making the same torque at a higher RPM, which is probably how you were thinking about it.

To make X HP, you need a minimum of Y fuel, no matter if you're turning 3,000RPM or 20,000RPM.

I hate being wrong, but you're right. Either way, I don't see why, using numbers I've seen in real life, that you couldn't make 500whp on 850cc injectors.

FINALLY! I now have an EPROM ECU.

Hey NCGalant! Are you available for me to drop this puppy by for a chip flash?

Ok here is the Cylinder head update post:

This stage two head I purchased a year or so ago is looking good, but is also proof that it is not worth building up an exotic head unless you are planning on really needing it.

I originally purchased this stage 2 head with stock cams and flow bench documentation for $750. I installed it on this 2.4 stroker for the first time this year. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I ended up blowing the head gasket from cylinder #3 to the coolant port.

I sent the head of to Webber Racing in Ohio for any repair that may have been required and to get it O-ringed to keep this head gasket failure from following my progress around. They quoted $150 for the O-ringing and and like $65 to machine the surface if that was required. That is a good price regardless of the shipping.

Well as luck would have it they also found that the valves were not seating well even after trying to lap them in. So all the valves got re-faced and the seats were all recut. They provided new valve seals and Spring retainer locks since the originals were hammered. All said and done with shipping, cleaning, o-ringing machining, and assembly I ended up dropping $670 on the rework. This doesn't include the $380 I spent with Forced Performance for their dual spring upgrade kit with titanium retainers.

Total into this Stage 2 head with stock cams so far: $1800 Freakin Dollars!!!

Is it worth it, I'd say no. Does it look awesome and should hold-up to just about anything I throw at it? Sure. All in all it's not a bad set-up and I'm glad I sent the head to Webber because if I sent it elsewhere the quality wouldn't have been there or I would have paid much more.

This also means I'll have to wait a bit for the FP3 cams I want since that money went right in the head.

Here are a few pictures of the results. I hope to have her up and running by next week sometime.

Close up of the O-ring area.

Close-up of the Dual spring set-up.

nice!

Looking good man!

Good to hear Weber treated you well. I'll have to stick that in my back pocket for whenever or if ever my stock head starts limiting me.

Btw, I have a used HKS 264 intake cam on the exchange that you can have pretty cheap. Don't know how much it would actually be worth without an exhaust cam to go with it though...

so exactly what kind of o-rings go on the head?
Im looking at purchasing a block thats been o-ringed and am curious what and where to get them.

The O-rings you are looking for are exactly the same as what I had installed in the cylinder head. You can put them in either the block or the head. Most choose the block. From what I hear this is because the head needs remachined more often than the block and without O-rings will make the rework price less expensive.

The O-ring is simply a piece of stainless steel wire that is fit into a groove cut in the head or deck surface by a machine shop. There may be a shop locally that can do this work, but I couldn't find one. Webber racing can take care of you if you can't locate one.

Looks really good, what is the head flowing?

holy shit Marcus you've modded the hell out of that car!

The cool thing is, it still pretty much looks stock like it always did aside from the monster FMIC behind the bumper.

From the outside anyway... pop the hood and I think that big hairdryer sticks out pretty good.

Yeah it's definitely different under the hood, but it's not blingin show car. The other comuter's won't suspect the punch she's packin for the most part.

Once you put those cams in they might.

Stock appearing? Not hardley. My memory of the stock like 14b car was a little off.

The air noise from the BOV and the turbo are unavoidable calling cards for attention to this thing when drivng at anything over 20% throttle.

The popping noise came back the next day after the spark plugs were replaced with 8's though. I found a problem where I was losing fuel pressure as the RPM's went up. A simple elimination of the factory FPR solenoid, that I should have done a long time ago seemed to take care of the issue once and for all. So I appologize for missleading anyone with the spark plug issue. The spark plug wires are the only other thing that was altered both times the popping was stopped. They are the good Taylor wires and they ohm'd out to be in good shape. Right now I'm just happy the popping is gone.

NCGalant and I finally got it tuned to run WOT with out knock. I had to sacrifice more timing and give more fuel to do it, but she's running hard at 20psi with virtually no knock at WOT. Some of you know how hard it is for me to give up glorious timing, and boost while adding more of the fuel I am running out of. It is good for a base tune though.

I've found that the formulas for fuel injectors and fuel pump are not too conservative. I had to raise my fuel pressure to a base of 48psi just to get the 850's from 115% duty cycle to 90% duty cycle and the fuel pump is falling off at about 7k RPM. Again this is at 20 freakin PSI and we still need to put a little timing back into the program. She pulls good right now, but until I upgrade the injectors and fuel pump I can niether turn up the boost or get the larger cams I want. I may have to throw in some race gas at SloPny Drag Day to see a respectible number.

One problem that is irritating me on the base tune is the fact that I'm getting full knock at like 15-20% throttle all the time. This just so happens to be the throttle position that you run in almost all the time under normal comuting conditions. So I get little or no timing and the power output is very unstable at this level. Plus if you dip into the throttle from this knocking condition you retain the knock (well we did before we killed the knock) Does anyone have any ideas on this VERY light throttle knock?

In the past I've been able to tune out that cruise knock with the idle and/or mid throttle adjustments on the MAFT. You could also try the RPM dependent tuning on it to see if that helps at low RPM.

Are you running a Walbro 255 high pressure right now? Are all your fuel lines upgraded? If the answer to both of these questions is yes, then chances are I'll need to upgrade my fuel pump as well. What are you thinking about upgrading to?

The Cosmo or Supra pump is as high as you can go for in-tank pumps as far as I know. After that' it's the Aeromotive in-line 1000hp pump.

Acctualy the walbro 255HP out flows the cosmo pump. But if any one wants one I have one.

If you've eliminated the EGR, you'll want to back off your part throttle/low rpm timing a bit. That should help with the part throttle knock.

Fuel lines are all upgraded to 6AN and the pump is a Walboro 255HP. I haven't really looked around for a better pump yet. I still need to do some research there.

Thanks Wort, I have eliminated the EGR a long time ago and I believe NC has made an attempt to reduce knock by pulling out low and mid range timing. I think at the time of this change we were aiming at cleaning up WOT knock by not letting it get started early on in the RPM band. However, the part throttle, or barely on the gas condition is still throwing wild knock counts out.

BTW, I forgot how much AWD Drifts rock! Jbone says the Talon's power delivery feels ok right now, but conservative and that spool is on with no lag. I can feel some lag if I start too low in the RPM band, but it is probably not much worse than my 14b was I guess.

After running out of injector at 20psi and my base fuel pressure cranked up to 48psi I think it's safe to say that these injector calculations are much more realistic when they are conservative. In light of this I have re-run the numbers using .65 as the lowest BSFC possible to keep the HP numbers in a realistic range. The Injector Clinic has an 1150cc injector option now for $370 or amazingly I can get 1600cc injectors from them for $260. As you can see by the numbers the 1150's will be at their max to run the crank HP I want. The 1600cc have plenty to spare but I hear Idle is impossible. I know Darryl's Race car idles. Does anyone have more input on this? 1600cc's seem like the way to go.

(850cc/10.5=81lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.65=112HP/injector x 4=448HP)
(1150cc/10.5=109lb/hr x.90(duty cycle)/.65=151HP/injector x 4=606HP)
(1600cc/10.5=152lb/hr x.75(duty cycle)/.65=175HP/injector x 4=701HP)

I've heard a couple guys say they've used 1600's with a stock ECU and it idles mostly ok. The only way to get the 1600's perfect is to run a standalone that can control low impedence injectors without a resistor box.

The 1600's are cheap because they're very commonly used with methanol setups, so more people buy them than 1150's.

Yea, that car ran out of fuel faster than anything I could have ever imagined. 11.5-11:1 A/F with the duty at 100%. With the fuel pressure higher there was more in it, but the pump couldn't keep the pressure up. The A/F would start to climb to 12:1 past 5500.

I've got the double MAF hz logging on and it pegs 3214 by 4500 rpms.

Thats pretty cool in a sick and HP dimented way!

:blah darn keys!

Stop the presses...

I found a few problems over the weekend and one of them has really thrown off the fuel supply numbers. Please dissregard my last post about fuel delivery for now. After the smoke has cleared and I'm running a clean tune I'll revise this thread as required for good reference information.

The rest of the story:

After giving Turbohcar his working 78occ injectors back and reinstalling my 850cc injectors with my EPROM chip, my car experienced a few problems. On the first try the engine started right up and ran fine. I turned the engine off to move the Saturn. When I came back to the Talon the engine would crank, but not start.

I spent the rest of Friday tracking down my ignition, fuel and wiring. I found a power wire to my Water Injection shorted out under a bolt. I also found the the fuel pump fuse on my rewire, just smoked! Half of the fuse was charcoal and the other half looked normal. I'd say it popped but kept some sort of contact with a lot of resistance which also partially melted the fuse holder. I started over on Saturday and narrowed the problem to the injectors not firing. Rob kindly loaned me his non-EPROM ECU to test with. With this I was able to eliminate the rest of the wiring as the culprit. I talked to a number of members, tested the injector transistors as well as 3/4 of the other parts on the ECU. All checked ok. By Sunday NCGalant brought a new EPROM chip and she was starting like her old self again. I feel the dead short on the WI kit cleared the memory on the EPROM chip. just strange timing.

With the new EPROM we began tuning runs again. Things were a lot different with a new fuel pump wire/fuse holder and fuse. There seems to be fuel for days now. We were WAY rich, but before we could get 'er tuned in the old girl developed a boost leak of some sort.

So on to the next problem of the Perpetual world of DSM issues. I'll keep you updated.

At least it's running! I'd say that's a good day in the life of a DSM!

That is VERY true! I had my arms up in Victory when the engine started on it's own ECU and the new EPROM chip.

I pulled the date back off of the two eproms he had tried when it was shorting. One was all 0's and the other was full of garbage. Just as a control I pulled the one I had been running in the laser and it was all clean. That just goes to show that a power spike can do some crazy things.

I re-ran my boost lines and reset my MBC and hooked up my water injection. I also made a 4" diameter boost leak checker. Found that my two piece Forrester Racing Head intake manifold is leaking at the seam. so I'm going to pull it apart and reseal it. Then we will see how it runs.

4" boost leak checker... that's awesome!

Absolutely. I've got your TA ECU also.