Rod Knock? HELP! Options

[ranta18]

So here's the deal. I had Garner bring his block to Kalina to get bored and honed for the 20 over pistons. While he had it there I had them measure up the crank, rods, and main bore to check to see if it was all in spec. One of the rod journals on the crank was low so they said they would turn them all down and he would run 10 over bearings. I said cool and he got the set of 10 over bearings. Assembly time comes and I put the rod bearings in. I torque the rods down to only 10 ft-lbs and the crank won't turn. I loosen them all up and it spins like a dream. Come to find out I can only torque one of them down without it locking up. It happens that one was the one that was out of spec. So... I figure they just turned down the one instead of all 4. Garners goes and buys 3 sets of STD bearings and we put them in and torque everything to 38 ft-lbs. Crank spins awesome. After he had to get the valves fixed in the head (bought a crap head off in internet) we got it started. MAD ROD KNOCK! Drop the oil pan and the rods have play in them. I can move them with my had from front to back and make them make noise, hence the rod knock. I'm not talking sideways along the axis of the crank. Perpendicular to the crank. I take the rod caps off and the bearings are toast. We go get new bearings and some plastigauge. When I do that the plastigauge reads about .003" (it goes from .001" to .0015" to .002" and then .003", so its not too accurate). The factory clearance is .0008' to .002" WTF is going on? When Kalina measured the crank and rods they said they were all in spec except for that one journal. There shouldn't be any rod knock or that much clearance if this was true. Do you think they might have turned down the other 3 just a little and not the full amount to go 10 over? There is NO way for 10 over bearings to fit. There is only .003" clearance now with STD bearings and the 10 bearings would add .005". Some how there is a .0015" gap on each side. He got the bearings from AutoZone, but they are Clevite 77 which I thought was an ok brand. Anyone got any bright ideas? Me and him are SICK of this dam car....LOL!

[awd4kicks]

Oh I know that feeling... and it sucks pooper!

First of all If I had any part of the crank turned I would expect it all to be symetricaly machined (All journals)

Second I will in the future have any mitsu crank re-hardened if I have it turned down. (Don't like believing the myths, but I don't trust the Mitsu cranks!)

Even though it sucks pulling the crank and in doing so, the engine. I would be talking to Kalina to see what he can do or check for you on that problem.

Good luck...

[ranta18]

Yeah, I think pulling the crank is the next thing. It sucks because Garner is having surgery on his arm Thursday and won't be able to work on it. I live in Bloomington now and have made several trips back to Morton to help and the woman isn't liking it too much...lol. Do you think that maybe the rod bolts have stretched too much? I don't know what else it coulld be other than the crank not being done right. I called Kalina to ask why they were doing all 4 and not just the 1 (used to Hondas) and he even said they were going to do all 4 so that all the bearings were the same. Well there is NO way they did all 4. Makes me wonder if they started to turn down the other 3 and then stopped and forgot or measured wrong.

[KOU In3]

I keep reading this thread in various forms every few months. And the recurring theme is Clevite bearings. Great for Domestic V8's but I'm NOT a fan of them for the 4G63.

Rumor has it that the 4G63 Clevites are not actually manufactured by Clevite but rather outsourced with their name put on the box. I can't remember the exact, but I do remember hearing something that Clevites are normally marked on the actual product somewhere (not on the bearing surface obviously). But, the 'Clevite' 4G63 bearings have no branding other than the box.

Not sure if that part is mere urban legend but I'd stick with Mitsu bearings personally after all the stories.


Wortdog and I were just having this talk the other day actually. Hmm, maybe another addition to 'Wort's Wall of Lies' coming soon. (inside joke)

[ranta18]

Thats what I was hoping, but he said they were like $20 a piece at Mitsubishi. Any other ideas? It has to be either the rods, crank, or bearings. Bearings could just be made wrong, rods could have stretched, but that would be up and down, not side to side where I can move it, crank could have been turned down a little on accident.

Does anyone have 2 extra STD Mitsubishi bearings that we could try out?

[awd4kicks]

I've got a whole set of stock mitsu bearings.

[ncgalant]

I've read this happening every time a mitsu crank is turned. Aparently they are never suposed to be turned. You could probably get away with it if it was rehardened.

[lawngsx]

I don't understand why it would make any difference if the crank was hardened, anyone??? I was under the understanding that you shouldn't turn a stock crank because you would loose strength, I don't see how that would affect and motor not wanting to turn.

[ncgalant]

The way I always heard it was that the top .001 of the crank is hardened. If you turn that away the crank is to soft.

Note: I'm just spiting out what I've read. I have no personal experience here.

[wortdog]

Just a thought, but you might have warped the rods/stretched the bolts when you torqued the rod cap down onto the the ten over bearings, assuming those journals on the crank weren't cut down.

Travis, just because the machine shop may not have done what they said they did doesn't mean the Clevites are at fault here. There are many grades of bearings, those 46G3 Clevites are probably just a bottom rung bearing.

Mitsu outsources the bearings as well, probably to the same manufacturer.

[natedogg]

I see a couple of possiblities for the rod knock. The clevite bearings have failed on 4g63's time and time again. Use only Mitsu's. Looks like Kicks has the hookup for ya there. Secondly, the more I hear about the work Kalina has done in the past that has failed, the more I start to wonder. But, then again they did all the machining work on my rebuild a couple years ago (2g pistons on 1g rods, cylinders bored 20 over, head machining, etc) and I haven't had any engine problems beyond a few oil leaks, which can hardly be attributed to Kalina's work. I don't hear about rod bolts stretching too much on 4g63's but I suppose it could be another possibility.

[ranta18]

awd4kicks - How can Garner get ahold of you to get those and how much do you want? His cell is 309-303-8404 Thanks!

On my motor I will only use that other car that we shall not name bearings. Same goes for the water pump, oil pump, etc. I advised against it, but he wanted to get the ones from AutoZone. When I saw they were Clevite, I wasn't as worried because I thought that was a decent brand. I'm going to call Kalina and ask about it because they did mess up by not turning all 4 (which they charged him for) and he might have an idea of what's going on.

The rod journal that was turned down does NOT knock. I haven't plastigauged it to see the clearance, but I can't move it like the others. It has 10 over bearings from Summit, not sure on the brand.

[wortdog]

The way I always heard it was that the top .001 of the crank is hardened. If you turn that away the crank is to soft.

Note: I'm just spiting out what I've read. I have no personal experience here.

The hardening on the cranks is there mainly to help prevent wear on the journals(so the bearings take the punishment from detonation, not the crank). It also helps keep cracks from forming on the fillets between the journals and the counterweights on the crank.

A non-hardened crank is probably fine for 350-400hp.

I've split a 20 under crank in half before in a totally stock, non-intercooled turbo Buick putting down a whopping 215hp. I've also seen 20 under cranks run just fine at 500hp levels. It pretty much comes down to luck of the draw on surface imperfections right around the fillet area and the crystal alignment of the crank as a whole as to how strong a mass-produced crank will be once turned.

[wortdog]

The more I think about it, you probably did warp the rod cap when it was torqued down with too large of bearings. You'll definately have to have the big end of the rods resized before you put that thing back together, otherwise you'll just toast another set of bearings IMHO.

[ranta18]

Wartdog, if that was the case, the bearings would just fall in and not have to be pressed in like normal. They are tight. Also, I plastigauged it on the bottom of the rod cap so there is too much gap all the way around, not just on the sides. It is a good point though.

[wortdog]

Yeah, nothing beats a good set of micrometers for making sure you've got what you think you've got.

[eclipgst]

Yeh i have come to believe that this car never wants to run. But anyway is it easier to pull the crank with the motor in or out. I really dont want to pull that motor again thats why i am asking. Oh Marcus if i can get those bearings off of you that would probablly help, let me know.

[ranta18]

Well I talked to Kalina and he had no answers. He said bring the crank, rods, and bearings in and they'll figure it out. YEAH RIGHT! I'll just pull the motor apart again. He said the fist mistake was when it locked up. I should have known something was wrong and I shouldn't have assumed he just turned the 1 down. Well I thought it was THEIR job to do it right and so I don't have to double check their work! We're going to measuer it up with a micrometer and what not this weekend. I think I can get a micrometer in there and measure the crank diameter. We'll just see what they did. He also said wartdog's theory wouldn't happen unless they were torqued really really hard. He said the std rod bolt torque wouldn't be enough to warp it.

[wortdog]

Yeah, that's probably right. They are little pansy bolts, and cast is kind of hard to warp. Guess I'm too used to looking at sportbike rods. Could have ended up with some defective bearings.