The TALON, Running Project Report Options

[ncgalant]

The timing map is
4000 13
4500 15
5000 15
5500 16
6000 16
6500 17
7000 19

Knock has always peaked at 6000 give or take and fallen off from there(unless things have changed in the last couple of weeks)

At this point we probably need to take out a degree from 4500-6000. I'd be very interested to see what it is actually running on a WB O2. We are calling for 11.2:1, but that number is probably off. Any ideas/tuning theories would be appreciated.

[natedogg]

Running a wideband is probably the best idea I have right now. Like NC said though taking out a degree or two of midrange timing should help as well.

With a wideband you can tune your desired AFR to your actual AFR. If you have the resources to pony up some dough for a wideband you could log it with the pocketlogger I sold you. I know it works with the PLXdevices M-300 WB. That way you could confidently tune in the desired AFR and then tweak the timing from there so you can run as much timing as possible without knocking. With that done, you can be reasonably sure the knock is caused by too much timing advance rather than a an overly lean or rich AFR.

I'm like you though in that I seriously doubt any of that knock is due to high IAT. Your turbo and intercooler combo should be extremely efficient at 22 psi.

[black92_tsi_awd]

Pocketlogger will also work with the AEM unit I bought. You just have to enter the offset correctly so the WB output and the logged data match since pocketlogger "supports" the PLX unit.

As Nate said the wideband is an excelent tuning tool. When I first got mine I thought I was too lean buy the narrowband output. End up being pegged at 10:1.

[awd4kicks]

I agree with the Wide band tuning.

The most knock I see at WOT is 6-8 counts 75% of the time. Near the upper end of the RPM band (Probably 6k like NC said) the count jumps to 13 regardless where I put the MAFT settings.

Another thing I am seeing that I have been unconcerned about for the most part... is part throttle knock. I'm thinking we can fine tune her a little by pulling a few degrees out of the DD maps. It might cut down on fuel mileage, but I see knock as soon as I barely dip into the throttle while cruising at 0 knock and 39 deg. of timing. Instantaniously knock starts climbing rapidly when the excellerator is moved even a smidge.

It's not like this at WOT at all, but as we get the WOT tuned I'm wanting to get the rest of things in line.

I'll check with Andy to see if he still has any Wide bands for sale.

[awd4kicks]

Found the base timing a couple degrees too advanced. So I set it back. Even if it's a bit retarded, I'd rather be safe than sorry at this point.

I found the Taylor #3 spark plug wire off too. That seems all too typical. I made a slight modification to keep the wire on.

I also turned the boost down to 19-20 psi. It still feels like a freight train, but smoother. Still getting single digit knock at WOT especially in the higher RPM, but it's better.

Warmer weather I guess? I still plan to check with a wide band. I think I've checked all the basics that I can.

[haunter]

sounds like you are making good progress!

[awd4kicks]

I welded in a water/alchohal injection nozzle last night so I can combat some of this warm weather knock and maybe get some more power for the street when needed. I have to go through the wiring this weekend, but when it's all said and done I will have my dual stage boost set back up. The lighter WG spring I have in now will allow a low 1st stage psi, but I'm not sure how high it will hold to. I will probably run out of octane before I reach that point anyway. If it works out then I can just save the heavy spring for the 30-35psi that I hope to run on straight race gas when I occasionally hit the track.

I had to snug up my clutch pedal rod again last night. I feel the Clutch master cylinder is definitely on it's way out. I just hope it last through SCDC. Either that or I need to replace it ASAP.

I want to set-up some dyno time to dial in the cam gears, get some street HP numbers and then tune in on the race fuel. However I've done some math and found that it will take me approximately two more hours to go to R&T's in Canton than it would to go to AMS's AWD dyno when you figure in the time to remove and replace the T-case & drive shaft for R&T's two wheel dyno. AMS would cost a bit more, but the WHP numbers would be accurate for AWD and they have much more knowledge of my set-up than R&T's. Hmmm...

[black92_tsi_awd]

Kicks....replace the cylinder before it goes out! You know it will happen right before SCDC!!

[awd4kicks]

I was thinking the same thing Chris.

Spy, I don't think I'm going to put down enough torque to smoke the clutch. It would be a good problem to have in a gross display of power kind of way, but if it goes out I'm sure it will be at SCDC too.

[Kazz5]

I welded in a water/alchohal injection nozzle last night so I can combat some of this warm weather knock and maybe get some more power for the street when needed. I have to go through the wiring this weekend, but when it's all said and done I will have my dual stage boost set back up. The lighter WG spring I have in now will allow a low 1st stage psi, but I'm not sure how high it will hold to. I will probably run out of octane before I reach that point anyway. If it works out then I can just save the heavy spring for the 30-35psi that I hope to run on straight race gas when I occasionally hit the track.

I had to snug up my clutch pedal rod again last night. I feel the Clutch master cylinder is definitely on it's way out. I just hope it last through SCDC. Either that or I need to replace it ASAP.

I want to set-up some dyno time to dial in the cam gears, get some street HP numbers and then tune in on the race fuel. However I've done some math and found that it will take me approximately two more hours to go to R&T's in Canton than it would to go to AMS's AWD dyno when you figure in the time to remove and replace the T-case & drive shaft for R&T's two wheel dyno. AMS would cost a bit more, but the WHP numbers would be accurate for AWD and they have much more knowledge of my set-up than R&T's. Hmmm...

I heard R&T was getting an AWD unit - no?

[awd4kicks]

I'm not sure on that one Kazz. I should call R&T's to verify.

On another note, I have successfully resurrected my water/alchy injection-High/low boost system.

On low boost I'm able to run around at 12-13psi with obviously no worry's of knock any time I'm at WOT. Right now I've got straight alcohol injecting at 20psi where I see small amounts of knock in the higher end of the RPM band. I will be adjusting the high boost setting to see how much psi I can run on BP93 & alcohol injection (AI). This way the AI will come on at 20psi as the boost sweeps up to a level that would normally cause knock on straight 93 octane. Back when we set this system up, Nate & I put in a safety measure to automatically go back to low boost if the water/alcohol level gets too low in the reservoir.

So I'm pretty happy, just getting the AI back up and running. I'll let you know in a couple days whether it helps me attain higher boost levels on 93 octane.

[awd4kicks]

I am UNTOUCHABLE now!

[awd4kicks]

Nah, I'm kidding. The most boost I was able to see over the lunch break with low knock was 23 psi. At temperatures in the mid 80 degree range, that may not be bad. I was still seeing single digit knock after the initial run which was 0-1 count of knock.

I'll have to make sure the AI nozzle didn't get plugged. I have a feeling I will need to take out a few degrees of timing afterall. I was hoping the extra timing would be offset by the cooler temps and additional octane from the alcohol.

The cooler weather that I was originally running 23-24 psi at, should prove to be interesting though. We will have to get together again soon Spy.

CAN'T TOUCH THIS...

[ncgalant]

Have you tried putting in some water? I'm curious how 100% alcohol works vs 50/50 with water or even 80% alcohol.

[wortdog]

Everything I've ever seen points to 100% methanol being the best you can inject for turbo cars. There's a stock block Turbo Trans Am (the 1989 Buick powered one) running high 9's on 65% 93 octane pump gas and 35% methanol. You may just need a larger nozzle than the one your kit came with if you're running into knock as you up the boost.

Pump gas varies in quality so much tankful to tankful that its good to run as high of a percentage of methanol as you can get away with, especially since you have a way of drastically lowering the boost when the tank is empty.

[natedogg]

If it is truly more cooling that you need rather than higher octane you may be better off with a mix of water and alcohol. Water has a much higher latent heat of vaporization than alcohol so it takes much more heat out of the air when it changes states from water droplets to water vapor, but then again higher octane lets you put up with higher intake temps.

Do you still have the "schematic" from when we originally designed and built this? I used to have it on my old computer but I've lost it over the years. I wouldn't mind having another copy of it just for reminscent sake.

[awd4kicks]

Yeah I still got it Nate.

I remember when we were trying to remedy the knock issue on my 14b, we got the same results with 50/50 as we did with 100% alchy. I'm sure our tests were less than scientific and trying to remove knock created by a lean condition (stock injectors) is a different kind of problem than today.

[awd4kicks]

Just got done doing some cooler temperature testing. TOO much AI! The engine boggs when the alchy is injected. I found something else common and small that may have been leading to my knock earlier today and maybe for a long period of time. I will test it again tomorrow durring the heat of the day to see what kind of results I get.

[awd4kicks]

Taylor wires! There has to be some issue with the machine that puts the #3 wire together at the Taylor assembly plant. The #3 wire continuously pops off of the plug. I have ordered a new set of Accell wires from SlowBoy based on info the DSMCentral members have recommended.

[ncgalant]

When I had the laser it ran seemingly fine with one wire in the megaohm range. It would be very possible for you to have a very bad wire while the car still pulls hard.