Those hp numbers are impressive for a 14b car... I cant wait to see where it goes on a bigger turbo.

Keep the 14b... That's just my .02!

says the man who has personally had 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,umpteen go nuculear on him in the past 8 years.

Which gives me the best perspective. I could have changed that 14b 20 more times and kept driving the Talon rather than the path I chose and the money I spent.

Well supported and tuned 14b for all day fun or an EVO III 16g at most for killer street game.

I completely agree... Going all out race car isnt the best move on a semi-daily driver..

That being said, Ive never ran a 14b to the edge... that ragged edge that some are doing.. However... I believe, that a 16g (evo3) ran at semi-sane levels, 20? Will out perform and out last the 14b at the same level...

Just my thoughts.. I had a worn out 20g on the spyrocket, Between it, and the evo3 16g, my vote is for the 16... Fast spool, great in the midrange and solid pull all the way up... man, those were the days.

I still have to turn up the boost on the latest tune but in the interest of promoting conversation...

What would be the next step in wringing out more 14b power?
1) new cams
2) 7cm exhaust section on 14b...less backpressure with some more lag?
3) ????

I'm sure a 16g at 20 psi would beat the snot out of a 14b purely by the extra air volume and it wouldn't be as stressed and heating up the air as much.

Remember how much HP I picked up just by tuning my stroker cams in with cam gears? Darryl, followed suit and made some crazy gains by dialing in his cams with adjustable gears. It may not be as extreme with the 14b and it will only make a difference if you buy cams, but it could produce some better numbers.

144mhp has some adjustible cam gears for sale I think.

Good idea....wish I would have maned up and bought those cams off Darryl before you got them Kicks:rolleyes:

Weld the internal gate shut, add an externa', turn the boost down 4psi, and spray a 75 shot at it. Just my opinion

My manifold is set up for a HKS 40mm external wategate...but I haven't found a good enough deal on one.

No nitrous for me, I'd rather put the money towards a better turbo. Racing cost me enough every time I go to the track without having to add refilling a nitrous bottle.

Looks like my wideband sensor was the culprit of the wacked out readings. Got the new one installed Sunday and now I get a 11:5 to 10:0 A/F at WOT. So next outing (THIS WEEKEND), the race chip with 20-21 deg timing goes back in, lean of the MAFT setting and I can turn up the boost past 19!

Hmmmm, wonder if I can pick up a set of used 264/272 cams....

Did a boost leak check today. The stock FPR is leaking air. Never checked it before, so I thought others may never have thought of it either.

A little silicone will take care of that today.

Also I got a stock plug for the BISS screw, it leaks too. So much for ease of idle adjustment. I'm going back to the silcone method on that plug.

Im thinking that your new clutch setup will really yield some gains on the launch... Perhaps even needing additional traction!

Yeah the clutch setup (twin disk-I've got connections ) should help as long as the streat manners are not affected.

Driving the tripple was no more difficult than the stage 3+ I have in the evo now. It will work just fine.

Latest track outing Bracket Race #13

12.674 @ 108.66 w/ 1.803 60' on 20 psi
12.499 @ 109.00 w/ 1.710 60' on 21 psi
12.450 @ 109.12 w/ 1.700 60'

First round:
12.379 @ 109.67 w/1.702 60' ON THE BRAKES! because I dialed a 12.50 so I'm sure I left some ET and MPH on the table.

Day started off around 83, first round was 72 with 73% humidty. Apparently my car likes natural water injection I kept leaning her out but the WB showed all runs in 11.4-11.0 range. I thought it was kind of wierd with the temp dropping all night but I guess the humidity rising must of offset it.

I did run one more time but it picked up a lot of knock of the stutter and then I chunked third trying to shift at 7300+

Had quite a few people coming up to me afterward asked where the hell a 12.37 came of of my little 4 banger

1.70 60 ft is the best I ever attained...still to date. Your hooking up rather well considering the extra power. Are you still running street tires?

I've been thinking that a set of four drag radials and a higher torque clutch may net me a better 60 ft. these days since I can only muster 1.9's with the All-season Sumitomo's spinning off the line. It would get faster or break some hard parts.

Great job in any case!

They're are Yokohama Avid V4S 225/50/16 all seasons. I think they work because I don't make enough power to break them too loose. They do spin during my dry hop before lining up at the tree. I don't know if the VHT on the line helps eliminate the spin off the line or if I am getting some water on my tires even through I drive around the water box.

I thought I had reached the limit of the 14B with my setup, now I'm not so sure after running the new time...

I just submitted my latest time to DSMtimes.com This puts me at #20 fastest 14b car in the list. Not too bad.

Excellent work! Bottom line is this... if you can pull a 12.37, keep working it. I think people look at a set-up with a preconceived notion that it can only go so fast. Keep it up, you know that car has at least an 11.99 in it

Hey NC, up for burning another chip?? The only real knock I'm seeing is coming off the stutter. Top end is clean. Maybe some more timing?

I had the MAFT set for +15 so I can still lean it out some more to get to 12.5 A/F.

It's amazing how tuning can have such a big effect...with NC making the big changes and me making small adjustment at the track, it justs make more power! Thanks Nathan!

more timing it is I was hoping you would say that. I'm thinking another 3 -4 degrees should be the magic happy point, but I'm no expert when it comes to race gas.

Have you thought about using water injection also? I'm wondering what ice water injection + race gas would do for your setup. If we could pull that 200 degree intake charge down to 100 or so that would be roughly a 10% power increase.

The combination of a2w i/c and propane on my FWD beat any knock easily... just a thought.

NC, let me know when you want to get together.

I've looked into water injection before, kind of costly ($200-300) but relatively pain free for semi daily driving. Just fill the tank...

A2W intercooler sounds like a good idea especially on a hot day iat the track if it had an ice resouvoir. Jmoushon, got any pictures of the setup you ran? I don't know if the additonal plumbing would be worth it. I assume propane is similiar to running nitrous?

I can do it later this week. a/w isn't the best of setups to run in something you want to run on the street, but for a track car it can mean HUGE gains. Water injection has the potential to add 15-25 horses if you use ice water. How bad are you heatsoaking the IC during your passes?

My a2w was a track-only set-up. It was functional on the street, but it lacked a heat exchanger for the sump, which made it heat-soak easily. With that said, the plumbing is simple, and it makes the i/c piping as short as it can possibly be. I can see if I have any old pics of it... just for reference, it sat exactly where the uicp usually does, with the battery relocated for clearance. A street-worthy heat exchanger would be very easy to plumb in.

Propane is similar in application to nitrous, but functionally opposite. Whereas n2o is an oxidizer, thus building power, propane is a high-octane cooling fuel, limiting knock and allowing for more boost with less knock. I had mine set-up on an adjustable Hobb's switch, which activated the propane injection at 20psi. I was able to run a full 30psi with <7 counts of knock at the top of fourth. The original tune is tough to nail down, but the results were worth it.

The Supra side mount stays pretty cool, I don't think I have any heat soak issues. When I'm bracket racing I have at least an hour between runs so everything cools down pretty nicely. In the heat of the summer, the IC gets warm if I do back o back runs.

Heading back to the track this Friday with the group from work.

Probably won't do anything spectacular as far as a new best. Hopefully I'll get some runs in before I put the wife in the car. I'd like here to get her in the 14's at 100+

Short version update...have to sit and wade through my slips and the logs to figure out the problem.

The chip with the higher timing (20-21deg and ran 12.37 prviously) had crazy knock in all gears. Swapped in the previous chip and still has some knock in second and third....

Good news is the wife almost got in the 13's!! She got 4 good runs in with a best of 14.001@105 Her last run, she actually had the motor up around 4000 when she launched, but then she took too long getting in second.

I think the trans and/or clutch is hurt. Gears bang going into first or reverse and third was feeling a little iffy...hopefully it's got some left in it for Vicary day

Drained some trans fluid....looked like milky capachino. Changing it before Vicary day.


I'm thinking of trying a 7cm exhaust housing in addition to cams to get some more 14b HP. The 7cm housing would give lower backpressure in the upper rpm range where the cams would be make power. The Mitsu 16g and 20g housing are 7cm correct?

Vicary report

Ran pretty good...right up to the point where my rear caliper locked up! Luckily Darryl and Susan where there to give me a ride home. I'll head back in the morning to fix her.

Best run was a 12.40 @ 109.X. The race gas chip was back in and the car was running pretty good. I was working up on increasing the boost and leaning her out, I guess I'll have to wait until next year to see how fast she would have gone.

Man... that totally sucks about breaking down. I have seen a handful of dsm rear calipers lock solid, stuff happens. Ive been able to free them up with a big clamp, but when it comes to breaking... Your best bet is to swap out for new parts. Don't leave it to chance.

Wow, I've been so wrapped-up in my own crap that I didn't even realize it was time for Vicary Day.

Another 12.4 is awesome Chris.

How many runs did you get in before the caliper problem?

I got 4 runs in:
12.862 @ 108.45 in the street chip
12.533 @ 109.09 on the race gas chip
13.1 @ 106.1 Bad Run slipped the clutch REAL BAD

Last run where it broke
R/T - .396
60' - 1.700
330 - 5.087
1/8 - 7.907
MPH - 86.36
1000 - 10.354
1/4 - 12.415
MPH - 109.22

I got her home yesterday afternoon. Picked up a new caliper from Advance and swapped it at the track. I'll be replacing the left side also. Nice brake kit from advance. All new bolts, sliders and brake pad clips are included.

How much was the caliper kit? I need to do the same thing.

I think it was $72 plus 35 for the core. they have to order it.

Sweet excess!!

Twin Disk

This guys just went 11.5 @ 118 on the 14b

Car Info

Car weight 2800 with driver, he runs a 1.6l head...have to figure that out.
Link to DSM Tuners Thread

Something to shoot for!

Very nice set-up. He's got a lot of mph coming out of that 14b. It's intersting how he went from stock injectors to 1000's. I like how he seems to have done most of it himself in true DSM fashion.

You can do it Chris.I'm actually glad to see that you can get 1.5's and 1.6 60 ft times on drag radials. If I kept the car that would be one of my next additions.

Hey kicks...it's not too late to put some drag radials on! Unless you sold the car in the last couple of weeks....

Got me a good deal on a 40m Tial BOV on ebay. I can FINALLY get rid of my leaky stock bovs.

I'm going to make me some aluminum intercooler piping since I have to redo the piping to fit it. Any good source of 2-1/2" alumium piping around here?

http://www.velocityair.cc/25alutubing.htm

I don't know of any local placed with aluminum.

Got my Tial BOV today. It's in really good shape.

Got in a little email discussion about AL intercooler piping with Darryl and a couple of his friends. Got some interesting food for thought out of it on whether the additional cost of the AL piping is worth it for the weight reduction. Another consideration is I can't weld Al so there etra cost to get it welded

Comparison of mild steel to 6061 aluminum tubing. Approximately 3 feet for the total weight numbers
16ga (0.065") mild steel 1.69 lb/ft 5.1lbs
18ga (0.049") mild steel 1.28 lb/ft 3.8lbs 1.3lb reduction
16ga (0.065") aluminum 0.585 lb/ft 1.8lbs 3.3lb reduction

Just thought I'd share because I didn't realize the way the numbers came out. I'm going to price out the option and see if I can even find some 18g piping.


I did scale the Talon today on my dirt modified buddie's race scales. The number might not add up, but the scale are sensitive and 1 lb or 2 won't make a diff.

Set up to race with a little less than a 1/4 tank of gas.
Without driver
LF 982 875RF
LR 542 599RR
Total weight 3000lb
Front/Back Split 62/38%
Left/Right Split 51/49%

With Driver
LF 1051 910RF
LR 636 615RR
Total weight 3214lb
Front/Back Split 61/39%
Left/Right Split 52.5/48.9%

Looks like I need to remove some weight off the nose.

So using a HP calc and 3200lb (I'll take off some weight for the extra couple gal in the tank ) on a 12.37@ 109.7 run, it come out to about 332hp at the flywheel.
I guess that's not too bad for something 210 stock and a 14b.

I actually got out and drove the Talon last week and beat the piss out of it. Had some fun on the back roads and some in town Trans definitely needs to be opened up and worked on, but should be limited to new syncros.

This is the first year in a while I've gotten to drive it in the winter (knock on wood) without having it in pieces for one reason (catastophic failures) or another. And that's kind of nice!

I've still got some new parts to throw on it: Tial BOV, stack of pipe for fabricating a new UICP, some new silicone connectors and t-bolt to eliminate some leaks, used twin disk clutch to try....but no energy to work on her. I finally got the garage cleaned out last week so I can at least get the car in to work on it.

The economy killed a little sponsorship I had going that was going to allow me to do a ton more bracket racing, so that kind of took the wind out of my sails.

Leaves me wondering what to concentrate on this year:
-just leave it alone and drive on the street "for fun"
-bracket race it as-is on a limited basis
-throw whatever money I can scrape up at getting it in the 11's and not run a series
-try something different, autocross or open track it

I guess time and cash flow will tell.

I took the Talon out to have some fun in the snow.. but it's .smoking like crazy under boost.

been sitting for a month...can't believe it would just start smoking though.

guess i'll drop the downpipe and see if the turbo is losing a seal.